US Pilots Labor Thread 6/2-6/9 STAY ON TOPIC

[cleardirect]

Both parties can come to terms the appeal can be withdrawn

Now if you have some theory please explain. Who would usapa come to terms with?

One last time. Maybe you and every east pilot might get it this time.

THERE IS NO COMING TO TERMS.

There is no one in the west that can negotiate or “come to termsâ€￾ with anybody. Usapa took that option when they were elected as the SINGLE bargaining agent. I don’t know how to make it any clearer. The only coming to terms will be the east understanding and ACCEPTING the Nicolau as it was written.

Usapa can not appeal, or pull the appeal later or ride it out to the end. That is it. But until that time whatever judge Wake determines as the remedy. That is what is going to happen. End of story.

 

[Thorn]

Sorry. I seem to have missed the part where Parker offered us those pay rates.

I'm sure he'll be happy to offer us the CRJ rates since thats what we are currently working at!

 

[cleardirect]

hp_fa's posts are nothing but hashed-over West spin, presented as from some kind of uninterested third party. Glad you enjoy them. His disinterest doesn’t pass the stink test, but great fodder to debate. After the judge’s instructions, was there any doubt how the jury would rule? Hard to believe it took the jury a whole 3 hours. No such bench bias on appeal.

Better be careful. usapa will need all of the excuses they can find when they lose the appeal. Bench bias will be a big one. You just confirmed that there is none. What will the excuse be now?

It's ALL our fault, NYC! ! Ford's Theater, Pearl Harbor, The Grassy Knoll, 9-11. It's ALL our fault! East MEC voted unanimously to support their Section 6, but ALPA National said NO! Now they want USAPA to negotiate a separate contract for them and their <200 members in good standing? Like how long is that going to take? Fact is, the company has rejected any negotiations except for a single contract. I don’t blame the West MEC as much as I blame ALPA National and their laziness.

Snoop,

Maybe you didn’t realize it, but you just blew the east entire game plan out of the water.

Fact is, the company has rejected any negotiations except for a single contract.

So if the company will not talk to the west. What makes you or any east pilot think that they will talk to the east?

No, section 6 for the east is just another dream designed by the current leadership to keep the loyal followers in line just a little longer. That is until the next failure. Then it is snapback sometime next year. The appeal twp years form now. A great contract 4 years from now.

Do you see the pattern? There is always some next promise. But never any delivery.

Another boring weekend? Ill agree with you on this, if the appeal was over tomorrow, unless they get their way on compensation, the company WILL drag this out for the next 3-4 years. Too bad your West supporters cant accept that. They wouldn’t be so spooled up.

What is most disturbing is that east pilots will accept a 6-8 years delay.

 

[Megasnoop]

There is no way that the east would vote for a contract with the Nicolau. No need to poll. We just accept that as fact and delay and waste time and money.

Your fellow Westies and even the non-partisan, un-involved hp_fa disagree. And I agree with them.

The east pilots will spend whatever it takes to chase DOH even go to court. OK we did that. Usapa lost but that is not good enough.

Actually, clear, is was YOUR side that went to court.

The pension fund was terminated 5 years ago. But the east decided that $700,000 is needed just to confirm that it is indeed truly gone. OK.

That was our choice, by a 5 to1 vote. You wont pay a cent for it and it wont delay either the appeal or contract negotiations.

The east now wants the court of appeals to truly for sure make sure that the Nicolau is indeed the list that will be used. OK!

Huh? That doesnt make any sense, clear.

I accept that the east wants to go to appeal. OK! That’s fine you guys go do what you think that you need. It is a bit naive to think that walking in a crew room will give you an accurate indication of what the group wants. Anyone that has ever done any polling knows that the sample is very important. You could poll only the top 10% of the seniority list and get a result. Poll the bottom of the list and get a different result. Allow the vocal pilots to control the sample and you get a different result. You have been talking to the crew room experts is a self selected sample.

You will not get accurate data.

Oh, like the inaccurate Wilson Poll, saying ALPA/USAPA was 50-50? Oh, I forgot, that was an ALPA/USAPA conspiracy bent on getting ALPA thrown off the property. Crew room polling isnt accurate. But it does shows trends. Accurate sampling, questioning and analysis is a useful tool. I’m all for it.

But you guys go ahead and appeal. I actually encourage it. Because once the court appeals decides to affirm the district court it finally puts an end to this. What will be the excuse if the appeal court affirms this? Will it be some incompetent group of judge’s that also don’t understand the law only Seham does? Usapa is painting themselves into a smaller and smaller box. An arbitrator ruled, Currently we have a federal jury deciding this DFR. Once the court of appeals confirms this decision it sets this in concrete. What more do you want to accept this? So please continue. Remove all of the excuses.

Thank you, Clear. 12-18 months from now we’ll know a lot, LOA93 pay snap-back, Wake remedy and damages (if any), probably the appeal, how long the company is going to stall at the table, all kinds of things. Till then, why all the incendiary sniping? Let the process unfold.

You guys waste time on a long shot hoping for snapback. That is at least 12 months away. The appeal is at least 18 months away. The pension recovery should have an answer in 3-6 months. All of this puts a contract somewhere between 18-36 months away.

What are you doing, adding all the “months†together?

When it was just the east pilot harming yourselves , OK. Put because of your inability to accept reality the east is doing real harm to the west. As this goes on the east is costing the west real money. The longer this goes on the more damages I am going to want. How does the east pay back the west for all of this? B scale, delay in the east pay raise, that $70 million gets paid to the west? The west is going to want payback.

Sorry our reality is costing you “real money.†NOT! Reality will be determined over the next 12-18 months. While LOA93 snap-back, the appeal, and real money are in dispute, the $70 M isnt. Anyone who thinks the company has a chance to deny that, needs to remember the company paid out our stock options in late 2005 after we were one company. “Payback,†that’s what its all about. Damages, if any, will only come from the union, not from the rank and file. The judge cant attach anyone’s pay. He might BK the union, but if that’s what you want, Im sure the company will do whatever it takes to help that along.

 

[aquagreen73s]

Somebody on the East has a clue (redacted names and personal info):

Gentlemen,



When this pilot group threw ALPA off the property, they walked away from the ability to negotiate conditions and restrictions to the Nicolau Award, and our ability to sue to have the award overturned due to the fact that it did not derive its essence from ALPA merger policy, i.e. no windfalls.



Instead, this pilot group elected a date of hire only union with an all or nothing approach with no room for negotiations. They also intentionally disadvantaged a very large minority of the membership in the process.



We, affiliated with ALPA told everyone that would listen that the USAPA plan would not work because it was a clear breach of the duty of fair representation for the West pilots. We also told everyone that would listen that the West would sue the new union, win, and we would have the Nicolau Award shoved up our aXX by a federal judge. We told you in numerous all day meetings in CLT. We did it on the ten day bus tour of all East crew bases, and in numerous letters, phone calls, and emails.


At the last LEC Meeting we held in CLT, Bxx Fxxxxx, after yelling insults at Mxxxxxxx and I for about a half hour, finally yelled out, "I don't care what happens to the Nicolau Award as long is ALPA is off the property!"� He went on to serve on the USAPA negotiating committee for less than a year, and quit. Too much stress, I guess.



He, and others, got their wish, and now we have the Nicolau Award, unmodified, just as we predicted.



For those of us who worked so hard to negotiate conditions and restrictions to the Nicolau Award, or have it overturned by the DC court, having solutions snatched from our hands was a frustrating event. And now having the Nicolau Award shoved up our aXX, as predicted, is frustrating as well. It didn’t have to be this way.



We all have to live with the consequences of your choices as stupid as they were. In this case, we in the minority, are suffering from the stupidity of the majority, which is how we got LOA 93. That same ignorance is keeping us on LOA 93 for the foreseeable future. We are the lowest paid pilots on the planet, and I guess, darn well proud of it!



In fact we are so proud of it, we are going to spend years appealing a ruling that will not be overturned, ever. The law is the law, and there’s no way around it. Nicolau is here to stay. You made darn sure of it when you elected USAPA, and those of us on the bottom half of the seniority list will never see the left seat as a result of the reckless and ignorant behavior engaged in by this pilot group.



All I have heard since the judge ruled is excuses and wishful thinking. So what I want to know from the ruling majority of pilots who got us here is, where to now?



Unfortunately, the best indicator of future behavior is past behavior. Not a good indicator of things to come.



Still looking for the Pony,



Lxxxx Sxxxxxxx

1987

 

[ALPO NO MO]

Somebody on the East has a clue (redacted names and personal info):

Gentlemen,



When this pilot group threw ALPA off the property, they walked away from the ability to negotiate conditions and restrictions to the Nicolau Award, and our ability to sue to have the award overturned due to the fact that it did not derive it’s essence from ALPA merger policy, i.e. no windfalls.



Instead, this pilot group elected a date of hire only union with an all or nothing approach with no room for negotiations. They also intentionally disadvantaged a very large minority of the membership in the process.



We, affiliated with ALPA told everyone that would listen that the USAPA plan would not work because it was a clear breach of the duty of fair representation for the West pilots. We also told everyone that would listen that the West would sue the new union, win, and we would have the Nicolau Award shoved up our aXX by a federal judge. We told you in numerous all day meetings in CLT. We did it on the ten day bus tour of all East crew bases, and in numerous letters, phone calls, and emails.



At the last LEC Meeting we held in CLT, BF, after yelling insults at M and I for about a half hour, finally yelled out, “I don’t care what happens to the Nicolau Award as long is ALPA is off the property!â€￾ He went on to serve on the USAPA negotiating committee for less than a year, and quit. Too much stress, I guess.



He, and others, got their wish, and now we have the Nicolau Award, unmodified, just as we predicted.



For those of us who worked so hard to negotiate conditions and restrictions to the Nicolau Award, or have it overturned by the DC court, having solutions snatched from our hands was a frustrating event. And now having the Nicolau Award shoved up our aXX, as predicted, is frustrating as well. It didn’t have to be this way.



We all have to live with the consequences of your choices as stupid as they were. In this case, we in the minority, are suffering from the stupidity of the majority, which is how we got LOA 93. That same ignorance is keeping us on LOA 93 for the foreseeable future. We are the lowest paid pilots on the planet, and I guess, darn well proud of it!



In fact we are so proud of it, we are going to spend years appealing a ruling that will not be overturned, ever. The law is the law, and there’s no way around it. Nicolau is here to stay. You made darn sure of it when you elected USAPA, and those of us on the bottom half of the seniority list will never see the left seat as a result of the reckless and ignorant behavior engaged in by this pilot group.



All I have heard since the judge ruled is excuses and wishful thinking. So what I want to know from the ruling majority of pilots who got us here is, where to now?



Unfortunately, the best indicator of future behavior is past behavior. Not a good indicator of things to come.



Still looking for the Pony,



XXXXX

1987

One thing you miss though is that the author of this letter was 100% sure that alpa was going to modify the "award". He kept preaching this to anyone who would listen even though the westies were 100% sure that alpa would not do this. The author of that letter was very upset about having to return to the line and was most unhappy about taking a huge paycut to just be another low paid co-pilot. He had hopes that he could stay at alpa and thus mitigate any loss of pay by still being able to feed at the alpa trough.

In fact, if you look at his record, he kept beating the drum that, and these are his words, "Our only relief is in alpa!"
So tell me, would the west ever have agreed to this with alpa? what was that last meeting they walked away from again? wasn't that alpa's last weak show?

PS: since you copied this from a post at Pilotloop, are you not in violation of the rules of that forum?

 

[aquagreen73s]

PS: since you copied this from a post at Pilotloop, are you not in violation of the rules of that forum?

And how do you know where it came from? Answer: you Assumed. Just like you ASSUMED USAPA would make Nicolau go away when in fact the opposite is true. Nic is now here to stay more than ever. Thanks!

 

[ALPO NO MO]

And how do you know where it came from? Answer: you Assumed. Just like you ASSUMED USAPA would make Nicolau go away when in fact the opposite is true. Nic is now here to stay more than ever. Thanks!

I saw it on Pilotloop and the author is, well, you know who but he is the very same guy who wrote and posted it. Did he post it in other forums? no, I don't think so.

Was he right when he said that alpa would mitigate the nic? That was the ONLY hope the east had was alpa making the west agree to modify and that alpa would do this for us. He wrote this to me and me others in emails over and over. I don't know if he belived it or not (don't thinks so) or if he just wanted to hang on to that alpa job.

 

[john john]

Now if you have some theory please explain. Who would usapa come to terms with?

Its membership (who represents the pilots at USAirways) and management
Under section 6 negotiations with NMB support

 

[aquagreen73s]

Was he right when he said that alpa would mitigate the nic? That was the ONLY hope the east had was alpa making the west agree to modify and that alpa would do this for us.

Everyone seems to be content with the notion that this dispute is an East-West thing, but there's probably two more layers to it. ALPA surely was listening to the squeaky wheel that happened to be the largest voting block and they (the Executive Board) desperately wanted to do something. The problem (my guess) is that the legal counsel vehemently objected and for good reason. I'm really not in a position to do anything more than just guess at what lies below the surface on the East, but IMO there's no question that a pretty strong undercurrent existed which flowed against ALPA before the Nicolau became an issue. The problem is trying to garner enough votes to get ALPA off the property and it's a lot harder than it seems. I can't explain it, but the professional ALPA types always seem to smooth things over just enough to stop decerts and it worked on the East until Nic. But, the problem for USAPA is that although they did accomplish what few have been successful at, they had to promise the unattainable. Now those chickens are coming home to roost.

We are in a quagmire and I honestly don't know how to get out of this for the long term. Right now we on the West are just looking towards the next legal battle. I guess the East is looking towards snapbacks and the $70 million payout. The latter will surely happen but with the other I have serious doubts. So, the East will get a little something in the form of $70 mil payouts, the West will get a little something from the litigation, but overall everyone is losing. It's pretty sad that fourth year EMB f/o at JBLU are making as much or more than AB f/os here, or AB capts over there are making more than 330 Capts here. We will continue this insanity until the entropy which fuels this internal turbulence dissipates. Then we can all look back and tell our children about this grand waste of time and energy.

One final thought before I hit the submit button: the East is not alone in being a squeaky wheel. They had political leverage and they used it. Likewise, the West had the legal leverage inside of ALPA National and used it. The East had Prater's ear, and we indirectly had the lawyers' ears in Herndon.

 

[Megasnoop]

And how do you know where it came from? Answer: you Assumed. Just like you ASSUMED USAPA would make Nicolau go away when in fact the opposite is true. Nic is now here to stay more than ever. Thanks!

We all know where Xxxxx Xxxxxxxx has been coming from. And its in print by Xxxxx on another chat room. ALPA manuevering kept him from being recalled back winter 2007-2008. ALPA kept him, only a status rep, on a long and expensive gravy train. $5,070 in 3 1/2 months of 2008 alone. Hes just ticked off it all ended. He owes a lot to the mother ship.

The West doesnt have a clue about what went on back east, starting back with our pension Cx and LOA 93. Our past history doesnt affect anyone out west and never will. We are committed to putting a rest to the demise of our pension, at our own expense, no cost to any West pilot. We're equally committed to fighting for our right to the LOA 93 pay snap-back. Those are our issues. If West has issues of your own, USAPA represents them. So far, weve got a pretty good track record of representing West interests (minus Nic, of course).

 

[hp_fa]

hp_fa's posts are nothing but hashed-over West spin, presented as from some kind of uninterested third party. Glad you enjoy them. His disinterest doesn’t pass the stink test, but great fodder to debate. After the judge’s instructions, was there any doubt how the jury would rule? Hard to believe it took the jury a whole 3 hours. No such bench bias on appeal.

Good morning to you too, Snoop.

So I am part of a spin machine, eh? Was I part of the spin when I posted that Seham's proposal of status quo ante showed promise for at least a part of any judicial remedy? Since then Seham has apparently taken what could have been a good idea and contaminated it by posturing that status quo ante would only be applicable once and if a contract containing Nicolau was to be voted down once then Nicolau would die along with any Permanent Injunction the Court may issue as part of its remedy. (That Permanent Injunction wouldn't be very permanent, would it?)

Was I part of that spin machine when I posted that I was not sure that one of their trial counsel had been fully effective in cross-examining one of USAPA's key witnesses or when I even said USAPA, in my opinion, had prevailed one day at the trial? Let me guess, West's spin machine is so sophisticated that it had the whole thing planned out so that I could lead the parade? Oh, and if you want to discuss stink tests what do you think most noses would detect in the form of the odorous offerings from White Plains and the Fairview Road section of CLT?

As I said, good morning Snoop.

 

[aquagreen73s]

Hes just ticked off it all ended. He owes a lot to the mother ship.

Those are dangerous fellows indeed. My brother was at Air Wisconsin and can speak with a lot of knowledge as to what went on there with the AW MEC. It's a perversion of the phrase "union leader" to label these individuals as such.

The West coesnt have a clue about what went on back east, starting back with our pension Cx and LOS 93.

I don't think anyone out West was claiming otherwise. Our principal concern is how you in the East have tried to throw us under the bus without any hesitation.

If West has issues of your own, USAPA represents them. So far, weve got a pretty good track record of represnting West interests (minus Nic, of course).

USAPA basically represents no one as it is clear from the past 14 months that they can't even find their aXX with both hands. For proof all you have to do is look at the state of the pilot group and contrast that reality with the campaign promises from USAPA.

 

[Hate2fly]

Everyone seems to be content with the notion that this dispute is an East-West thing, but there's probably two more layers to it. ALPA surely was listening to the squeaky wheel that happened to be the largest voting block and they (the Executive Board) desperately wanted to do something. The problem (my guess) is that the legal counsel vehemently objected and for good reason. I'm really not in a position to do anything more than just guess at what lies below the surface on the East, but IMO there's no question that a pretty strong undercurrent existed which flowed against ALPA before the Nicolau became an issue. The problem is trying to garner enough votes to get ALPA off the property and it's a lot harder than it seems. I can't explain it, but the professional ALPA types always seem to smooth things over just enough to stop decerts and it worked on the East until Nic. But, the problem for USAPA is that although they did accomplish what few have been successful at, they had to promise the unattainable. Now those chickens are coming home to roost.

We are in a quagmire and I honestly don't know how to get out of this for the long term. Right now we on the West are just looking towards the next legal battle. I guess the East is looking towards snapbacks and the $70 million payout. The latter will surely happen but with the other I have serious doubts. So, the East will get a little something in the form of $70 mil payouts, the West will get a little something from the litigation, but overall everyone is losing. It's pretty sad that fourth year EMB f/o at JBLU are making as much or more than AB f/os here, or AB capts over there are making more than 330 Capts here. We will continue this insanity until the entropy which fuels this internal turbulence dissipates. Then we can all look back and tell our children about this grand waste of time and energy.

One final thought before I hit the submit button: the East is not alone in being a squeaky wheel. They had political leverage and they used it. Likewise, the West had the legal leverage inside of ALPA National and used it. The East had Prater's ear, and we indirectly had the lawyers' ears in Herndon.

January 1, 2010 pay rates per Restructuring Agreement:
12th year Captain Rate 12th year F/O rate

A330--------$222.26 A330------$152.22
Group 1----$201.35 Group 1---$137.52
Group 2----$174.85 Group 2---$119.42

Also there are a couple of e-mails from DXXX BXXXXXXX that explain the expiration of the LOA93 pay rate provision. Both of these e-mails bode well for the east!

 

[nic4us]

This gets more off-the-wall with every Nic4us chat.

As NYC said, hp_fa, the West did it to themselves when they rejected their own right to go to Section 6 back in June 2006.

Understatement of the week.

But as I pointed out, west did not reject our right to go section 6, we delayed( yet retained) our right to go section 6 in order to enter joint negotiations. When east walked out of joint negotiations after the Nic, West waited, hoping to keep ALPA, then at the eleventh hour opened section 6 with the company, secured future dates and USAPA cancelled West's section 6 negotiations.

I am not surprised no one out east realizes this. West says company accepted the Nic, east says no they did not, West produces letter from company stating acceptance which was put in every West pilots co-mail, yet east is unaware of it? West says, America West aquired USAirways, east says no they did not, (rants on Lakefield, Barbell aquisition) West and Wall street and the entire world produce SEC filing, company audits, financial reports, all which say America West aquired USAirways, and yet east is still in denial? West wins a DFR lawsuit against USAPA, and the east says, "well they did not really win, because we wanted to get this thing to the 9th circuit, so in reality it is our victory"? WTFO?