US Pilots Labor Thread 6/2-6/9 STAY ON TOPIC

[Thorn]

Max CRJ700 Capt. pay = $121.00 hr
Max 320/737 Capt. pay USAirways = $125.00 hr
Difference = $4.00 hr

Max 737 Capt. pay = $172.00 hr
Max 320/737 Capt. pay USAirways = $125.00 hr
Difference = $47.00 hr

Working under LOA 93 for the rest of your career......Priceless! Thanks USAPA!

 

[A320 Driver]

Actually I couldn't care less about the appeal results, only that it wastes time. But a poll (of ALL pilots, not merely members) that directed the BPR to abandon the appeal and the BPR actually abiding by the wishes of the pilots, would go along way toweards proving that ther is a responsive leadership at the top of ALPA and they are willing to set aside personal gain to do the will of the pilots. This would likely increase membership and put their leadership positions in less jeopardy.

Look, anyone with any interest in this at all knew that no matter what happened with the verdict, the loser would appeal. This whole thing will run it's course and no argument, especially here, will stop it. What is new for me is the obvious despiration I'm reading from the West pilots to get the Nic in place. I know, you won and you want access to the widebodies and East flying.

It's coming. We need a contract. The company doesn't want one.

So there.

A320 Driver B)

 

[hp_fa]

Once again, hp, why do you care? Your closeness to whats going on and obvious west bias dosnt reflect your “ah-shucksâ€￾ stay-at-home claims. Your obsessed with this. The company is already stalling. Throwing in the towel on the appeal wouldnt change that at all. Besides, the membership (out east) demands appeal. Right now, with less than 200 west members in good, why should we take west seriously?

Glad your so on top of this, hp, especially since you got no dog in the fight. You want the company not to take us seriously? No better way than a de-cert campaign to bring ALPA back. Then you got your 3-4 years. Not that ALPA has a chance, they dont, but the company will use that as an excuse. Whether we have to accept Nic will settle out in 12-18 months. With the (IMO) excellent potential for winning the pay increase grievance, and (IMO) the slight potential of losing our appeal. The Kirby offer is about a wash with January 2010 pay recovery and the $70M bonus. Last, you totally underestimate the increased solidarity back here with the change in retirement to age 65. It made a huge difference how our top seniority CAs feel about USAPAs direction, an extra $1M in pay and benefits. I fly with them and see.

One big problem on the miniscule chance USAPA getting voted out, whos going to pay all those multi-million$ in damage$? Whos going to pay the West attorney fees?

Your agenda is clear, you seem to bask in some kind of Walter Mitty fantasy of self-importance. I probably wont make it. I work for a living and August is busy month on the farm. I doubt if I could get on a West jumpseat anyway.

The really simple solution would be to simply take all the pilot chat that you want to be private and outside the ability for me, and others like me who have "no dog in the fight", to comment upon to a pilot's only forum. I promise you that I don't belong to any other forums that discuss US Airways pilot's issues. That includes the fact that I don't belong to any site in which the West folks discuss this topics of importance to them.

As for polling, solidarity and the like, the simplest way to prove everyone wrong is to negotiate the best possible contract using Nicolau and see if the vote passes or fails. Many other posters to this board have suggested that what is discussed in pilot rooms, flight decks and union meetings may differ from what would happen at home when a pilot is filling out his/her ballot and discussing with a spouse what to do, take the money or vote no on a contract. That would serve as the ultimate poll.

 

[hp_fa]

Look, anyone with any interest in this at all knew that no matter what happened with the verdict, the loser would appeal. This whole thing will run it's course and no argument, especially here, will stop it. What is new for me is the obvious despiration I'm reading from the West pilots to get the Nic in place. I know, you won and you want access to the widebodies and East flying.
A320 Driver B)

Driver,

What would happen if West pilots, in the spirit of how Nicolau was crafted, agreed to some kind of fence around the widebody flying?

As for narrowbody flying I don't think the Nicolau decision provided there was to be any breakout of East pilots vs. West pilots flying the narrowbody aircraft except for by the seniority list and bidding into a domicile. So I don't think there could be any "spirit of Nicolau" breakout there, but I do see where West could conceivably decide to provide some form of fence to the widebody flying.

The practical problem is what mechanism could be crafted so that West pilots could vote and East pilots could vote when as of now they are all represented by USAPA? Something needs to be crafted for such votes at some point and I am not expecting Judge Wake's remedy to solve that issue. However, I could be wrong on that.

 

[aquagreen73s]

Besides, the membership (out east) demands appeal.

Right now, with less than 200 west members in good, why should we take west seriously?

Addington

Whether we have to accept Nic will settle out in 12-18 months.

You're right. Open wide!

With the (IMO) excellent potential for winning the pay increase grievance,

and (IMO) the slight potential of losing our appeal.

slight potential? How about as close to 100% certainty without touching 100%. In math, it's called a limit: LIM as X approaches 1. Or if you want to turn the question around and ask about the probability of USAPA winning the appeal, then the LIM becomes as X approaches 0. There is a mathematical possibility of the West losing on appeal, but there's also a possibility that a meteor will wipe out civilization as we know it tomorrow (whcih seems to happen once a billion years or so). Holding my breath . . .

The Kirby offer is about a wash with January 2010 pay recovery

Oh, you mean snapbacks? Yeeaahhh.

Last, you totally underestimate the increased solidarity back here with the change in retirement to age 65. It made a huge difference how our top seniority CAs feel about USAPAs direction, an extra $1M in pay and benefits. I fly with them and see.

Yawn. Ummmhmmm. Wow.

whos going to pay all those multi-million$ in damage$?

You and every East pilot.

I doubt if I could get on a West jumpseat anyway.

Actually, you could. Even with a yellow lanyard as I've taken to wearing mine in support of my union!

 

[AWE_SHUCKS]

As for polling, solidarity and the like, the simplest way to prove everyone wrong is to negotiate the best possible contract using Nicolau and see if the vote passes or fails. Many other posters to this board have suggested that what is discussed in pilot rooms, flight decks and union meetings may differ from what would happen at home when a pilot is filling out his/her ballot and discussing with a spouse what to do, take the money or vote no on a contract. That would serve as the ultimate poll.

The membership is not clamoring for this approach, the west is but they choose not to have their voice heard. We don't want to waste time with "the best possible contract using Nicolau" because our goal is something else. If you want a voice, join a union, if not, so be it.

 

[HPearlyretiree]

Your agenda is clear, you seem to bask in some kind of Walter Mitty fantasy of self-importance. I probably wont make it. I work for a living and August is busy month on the farm. I doubt if I could get on a West jumpseat anyway.

Wow, why are you so threatened by HP's posts? I find them intelligent and informing. He was right all along on the DFR case. Its an interesting subject and people are free to post here.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Max CRJ700 Capt. pay = $121.00 hr
Max 320/737 Capt. pay USAirways = $125.00 hr
Difference = $4.00 hr

Max 737 Capt. pay = $172.00 hr
Max 320/737 Capt. pay USAirways = $125.00 hr
Difference = $47.00 hr

Working under LOA 93 for the rest of your career......Priceless! Thanks USAPA!

Sorry. I seem to have missed the part where Parker offered us those pay rates.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Driver,

What would happen if West pilots, in the spirit of how Nicolau was crafted, agreed to some kind of fence around the widebody flying?

What would happen if pig butts smelled like roses?


HELLO! ALPA tried to do such things immediately in the aftermath of the Nicolau abomination. The west won't hear of it. And that's fine, for what it's worth. That's why we have courts of law, and very bright (and not-so-bright) legal minds. (Present company excluded from one of those.)

 

[aquagreen73s]

We don't want to waste time with "the best possible contract using Nicolau" because our goal is something else.

Ummm, After Addington, I think a federal judge is going to have a pretty strong say as to the legality of your "goal." Your choices are basically going to be two fold:

(1) LOA 93 + accruing damages as long as there are West pilots furloughed - Nicolau; or

(2) LOA 93 for another year or two with West pilots made whole + Nicolau = joint contract in two years or so and payraises for the East.

Take your pick.

Interesting that Brengle has parted ways with USAPA. He was your only attorney with litigation and appellate experience. Now you're back to the "guy in the basement of his house" type law firm representing USAPA.

 

[Nicstolemyjob]

Driver,

What would happen if West pilots, in the spirit of how Nicolau was crafted, agreed to some kind of fence around the widebody flying?

As for narrowbody flying I don't think the Nicolau decision provided there was to be any breakout of East pilots vs. West pilots flying the narrowbody aircraft except for by the seniority list and bidding into a domicile. So I don't think there could be any "spirit of Nicolau" breakout there, but I do see where West could conceivably decide to provide some form of fence to the widebody flying.

The practical problem is what mechanism could be crafted so that West pilots could vote and East pilots could vote when as of now they are all represented by USAPA? Something needs to be crafted for such votes at some point and I am not expecting Judge Wake's remedy to solve that issue. However, I could be wrong on that.

The CBL's don't allow for dual ratification within the membership....I suppose the members of USAPA could be solicited to consider a one-time amendment to allow for dual ratification as suggested by Seham in his status quo ante scenario...(with no Nic, of course)

But with the Nic...there's no reason to even consider it for the East membership.

Interesting that you engage in so much speculation, especially for one who works in the legal field...you, of all people, should know better.

The back-and-forth is just that...back and forth...to absolutely no avail. What it does do is galvanize the polarity of each side. The appeal to the 9th is on as far as the East is concerned...as far as the majority of the membership is concerned....as far as the majority of voting members are concerned. There's nothing left to say.

 

[cleardirect]

I am slowly starting to understand the east mentality. You guys say that you don’t need to poll because everyone knows what the east pilots want.

There is no way that the east would vote for a contract with the Nicolau. No need to poll. We just accept that as fact and delay and waste time and money.

The east pilots will spend whatever it takes to chase DOH even go to court. OK we did that. Usapa lost but that is not good enough.

The pension fund was terminated 5 years ago. But the east decided that $700,000 is needed just to confirm that it is indeed truly gone. OK.

The east now wants the court of appeals to truly for sure make sure that the Nicolau is indeed the list that will be used. OK!

I am beginning to understand that the east pilots have a problem with acceptance. Unless it complies with the east version of reality then the east will not accept it. Could this be one of the reasons that LOA93 is a reality? Could this be why the east is the bottom of the industry?

I accept that the east wants to go to appeal. OK! That’s fine you guys go do what you think that you need. It is a bit naive to think that walking in a crew room will give you an accurate indication of what the group wants. Anyone that has ever done any polling knows that the sample is very important. You could poll only the top 10% of the seniority list and get a result. Poll the bottom of the list and get a different result. Allow the vocal pilots to control the sample and you get a different result. You have been talking to the crew room experts is a self selected sample.

You will not get accurate data.

But you guys go ahead and appeal. I actually encourage it. Because once the court appeals decides to affirm the district court it finally puts an end to this. What will be the excuse if the appeal court affirms this? Will it be some incompetent group of judge’s that also don’t understand the law only Seham does? Usapa is painting themselves into a smaller and smaller box. An arbitrator ruled, Currently we have a federal jury deciding this DFR. Once the court of appeals confirms this decision it sets this in concrete. What more do you want to accept this? So please continue. Remove all of the excuses.

You guys waste time on a long shot hoping for snapback. That is at least 12 months away. The appeal is at least 18 months away. The pension recovery should have an answer in 3-6 months. All of this puts a contract somewhere between 18-36 months away.

When it was just the east pilot harming yourselves , OK. Put because of your inability to accept reality the east is doing real harm to the west. As this goes on the east is costing the west real money. The longer this goes on the more damages I am going to want. How does the east pay back the west for all of this? B scale, delay in the east pay raise, that $70 million gets paid to the west? The west is going to want payback.

 

[hp_fa]

We don't want to waste time with "the best possible contract using Nicolau" because our goal is something else.

Now that is a really interesting statement. Care to elaborate?

 

[cleardirect]

Sorry. I seem to have missed the part where Parker offered us those pay rates.

When has a union ever accepted what the company “offeredâ€￾?

It is up to the union to gain leverage to force the company to those rates or better.

What leverage does usapa have? How is usapa going to get the company to even get close to those rates? With usapa appealing why would the company even talk to usapa anymore, let alone think about those rates?

The course of action has and will cost every pilot. Two things that a union should do. Protect the current contract. Negotiate a better new contract. Usapa is not doing either one.

How does usapa improve the pilots life in the next two years? How does usapa get the company to “offerâ€￾ those kind of rates?

 

[hp_fa]

All of this puts a contract somewhere between 18-36 months away.

My guess, under the current mindset, is 48-60 months away. The 9th Circuit appeal ruling (about 13 months from now) and then either a Writ of Certiorari or proceedings in the trial court (12 months). Follow that by the mere procedure involved in negotiating a contract (36-48 months) and you get into the ballpark I am predicting. The Company could speed this up if they chose to if they saw an advantage to fast-track negotiations, but I am not counting on that happening. Of course USAPA could also speed this along by accepting Nicolau as the seniority for the past merger and then using DOH for future mergers, but I don't see that happening either. So, accordingly, I fail to see any new contract for years to come.

When it was just the east pilot harming yourselves , OK. Put because of your inability to accept reality the east is doing real harm to the west. As this goes on the east is costing the west real money. The longer this goes on the more damages I am going to want. How does the east pay back the west for all of this? B scale, delay in the east pay raise, that $70 million gets paid to the west? The west is going to want payback.

Actually, I failed to fully realize the harm that USAPA is conceivably doing to the West folks because their contract was already amenable and all of this delay is actually costing West folks money from their already amenable contract. The West's contract has now been amenable for nearly 2.5 years whereas the East contract has not.