US Pilots Labor Thread 6/2-6/9 STAY ON TOPIC

[700UW]

You hit the nail on the head again

Past practice of all mergers of both airlines regarding seniority
DOH

All mergers were not done DOH for pilots, Empire didnt get their full time and I believe PS, US and PI had some kind of slotting?

Now in mainteance it was DOH except fot the shuttle mechanics and they went to court and I believe on thier Eastern DOH eventhough they had to resign from EA to be hired by Trump.

 

[ussnark]

All mergers were not done DOH for pilots, Empire didnt get their full time and I believe PS, US and PI had some kind of slotting?

Actually, Empire had DOH for everything, except bidding for aircraft they did not bring to the merger. In return they were fully vested in the PI retirement plan.

No slotting for PS/US. Very little slotting for PI.

 

[hp_fa]

The bickering and posturing I was refering to was Web Board warriors on both sides attempt at morale busting.

I knew that. My point in mentioning that was it doesn't make a bit of difference whether another word regarding Addington, Nicolau or USAPA is ever mentioned or not on any web board because the reality is that until the pilot's union settles all of it's problems it will not get anywhere with the Company. Why? Because the Company won't take it seriously. In addition the West pilots won't take USAPA seriously when USAPA fails to recognize that Nicolau is the way of it as far as the AWA/US Airways merger is concerned. Why should they take USAPA seriously when West prevailed at an arbitration and now in a DFR case in federal court and yet USAPA continues to seemingly ignore all of that?

The way this battle is shaping up there is no reason for the Company to take USAPA seriously for the next three-to-four years unless either USAPA accepts Nicolau or is voted off the property.

Oh, and before you suggest again that I am a pilot, work for plaintiff's law firm or have some other nefarious agenda, let me say that it just ain't so. If you come to the damages trial in August we can say hello.

 

[luvn737s]

The vast majority of USAPA (most all East and 0 West) demand that the USAPA play this out in the Appeal, which will determine whether we negotiate with the NIC or DOH.

How do you know what the "vast majority" thinks without polling them? With millions wasted on legal fees, the cost of polling can't be a legitimate excuse. Wouldn't solid polling numbers make you "supremely confident" of the direction USAPA should take?

And while the "majority" you speak to agree with you, I'd be interested to hear both what those who disagree with you say and your response to them. Give us the edited PG-rated version.

Didn't the Supreme's sing "You Keep Me Hangin' On?"

 

[ussnark]

How do you know what the "vast majority" thinks without polling them?

Yeah, just like ALPA "polled" the east pilots and came to the conclusion that ALPA would not be voted off the property.

A long time ago I was a rep. for ALPA. The most difficult task I had was self-imposed, once a week, call someone I knew did not agree with me. After several hours we still may or may not agree, but a lot of things were accomplished. Other than me getting constantly criticized for "excessive phone bills". Not surprisingly, the issues that arose were rarely identified through a poll.

 

[A320 Driver]

Actually, Empire had DOH for everything, except bidding for aircraft they did not bring to the merger. In return they were fully vested in the PI retirement plan.

No slotting for PS/US. Very little slotting for PI.

US/PI was DOH with conditions and restrictions (very few and very ineffective). Empire should have been slotted into the F-28 pilots which is the aircraft they brought to the merger. Can't mention Empire without saying that the position they had in the Breeger lawsuit was unreasonable. They want DOH all the way back to the commuter aircraft that were not even operated under FAR 121. Shuttle wants Eastern DOH even though that wasn't their position in arbitration.

Everybody wants something at the expense of someone else. Where will it end???

A320 Driver B)

 

[nycbusdriver]

Actually, Empire had DOH for everything, except bidding for aircraft they did not bring to the merger. In return they were fully vested in the PI retirement plan.

No slotting for PS/US. Very little slotting for PI.

There was no slotting on the PI/US merger. It was straight DOH with very limited fences for the handful of widebody aircraft that PI brought to the merger. Those fences lasted only a few years. As US added more widebodies, the PS pilots found them very comfortable from the get-go. And they still find them very comfortable 20 years later due to their own DOH integration. This from an airline CEO (Colodny) that all but swore off transatlantic service, and probably would have pulled CLT-LGW if he thought he could get away with it without royally pissing off every politician on the east coast who fought so hard to get PI the London authority.

 

[A320 Driver]

There was no slotting on the PI/US merger. It was straight DOH with very limited fences for the handful of widebody aircraft that PI brought to the merger. Those fences lasted only a few years. As US added more widebodies, the PS pilots found them very comfortable from the get-go. And they still find them very comfortable 20 years later due to their own DOH integration. This from an airline CEO (Colodny) that all but swore off transatlantic service, and probably would have pulled CLT-LGW if he thought he could get away with it without royally pissing off every politician on the east coast who fought so hard to get PI the London authority.

Well said sir.

PS pilots were the only ones that really made out like bandits in that round of mergers. Retirement vesting, widebody slots (of which they had NO hope of ever flying, courtesy of Piedmont Airlines), and sitting very cozy at the top of the seniority list with more money in their pockets.

I hold nothing against them. A merger is what it is. Somebody wins...somebody doesn't.

A320 Driver B)

 

[nic4us]

Bad faith exists only between the bargaining agent and the company. Thats what Rakestraw was all about.

AOL has back-peddled on #2 complaint because LCC is no longer a defendant and there are numerous statements of fact, testimony by AOL counsel and by written stipulated facts that USAPA was negotiating in good faith, just not for the Nicolau award.

Snoop

Snoop,

Bad faith, the intentional or malicious refusal to perform some duty or contractual obligation, exist between the east and west. Bad faith can exist anytime there is a contract, in this case there was a contract between east and west to negotiate seniority via ALPA merger policy. The east's refusal to live with it and formation of USAPA is a texbook example of bad faith.

How USAPA behaves during negotiations with the company on a CBA is immaterial to the bad faith the east has displayed toward its contractual obligations on seniority integration.

It is ridiculous to say that bad faith does not exist because USAPA is negotiating in good faith with the company on a CBA that enables their bad faith effort toward Nicolau.


Everyone else,

All this history on seniority integration of the prior mergers and other work groups is very enlightening, and I am glad to get a handle on your prior issues. However, it is all completely irrelevant to the Nic, as all cases turn on their own merit.

 

[Megasnoop]

How do you know what the "vast majority" thinks without polling them? With millions wasted on legal fees, the cost of polling can't be a legitimate excuse. Wouldn't solid polling numbers make you "supremely confident" of the direction USAPA should take?

Showing up for work in PHL is how I know, Luvn. There you go again, trying to frame the debate with opinion passed on as fact. “Wastedâ€￾ is your opinion only. With an appeal win, was it wasted? We wont know that for 12 to 18 months and maybe million$ more spent, wasted, whatever. It takes 2 sides to waste. This “lets move onâ€￾ theme wont wash back East. It takes both sides to “move onâ€￾ and the company is stalling. Weve still got the pay return grievance in January to look forward to. We could have that resolved by May. I dont remember saying “supremely confident,â€￾ maybe I did.

Maybe we can hire Wilson poll. They were so accurate at Wye River, convincing West MEC the de-cert vote was razors edge. Howd that turn out? That was all part of the USAPA/ALPA conspiracy, right? We dont need polling to know the consensus. You guys want us to abandon the appeal. Obviously why, your worried for good reason. But if you really want polling, you got 3 BPR Reps who can put a resolution to poll. I think it would pass.

And while the "majority" you speak to agree with you, I'd be interested to hear both what those who disagree with you say and your response to them. Give us the edited PG-rated version.

Just read the chats of Dan, Jon and our other ALPA hangers-on, as few as there are to get the other side of the east story.

 

[boeingplt]

Everybody wants something at the expense of someone else. Where will it end???

A320 Driver B)

And that is precisely what a vague merger policy propagates, opportunism. Where will it end, indeed.

BP

 

[luvn737s]

Actually I couldn't care less about the appeal results, only that it wastes time. But a poll (of ALL pilots, not merely members) that directed the BPR to abandon the appeal and the BPR actually abiding by the wishes of the pilots, would go along way toweards proving that ther is a responsive leadership at the top of ALPA and they are willing to set aside personal gain to do the will of the pilots. This would likely increase membership and put their leadership positions in less jeopardy.

 

[Megasnoop]

I knew that. My point in mentioning that was it doesn't make a bit of difference whether another word regarding Addington, Nicolau or USAPA is ever mentioned or not on any web board because the reality is that until the pilot's union settles all of it's problems it will not get anywhere with the Company. Why? Because the Company won't take it seriously. In addition the West pilots won't take USAPA seriously when USAPA fails to recognize that Nicolau is the way of it as far as the AWA/US Airways merger is concerned. Why should they take USAPA seriously when West prevailed at an arbitration and now in a DFR case in federal court and yet USAPA continues to seemingly ignore all of that?

Once again, hp, why do you care? Your closeness to whats going on and obvious west bias dosnt reflect your “ah-shucksâ€￾ stay-at-home claims. Your obsessed with this. The company is already stalling. Throwing in the towel on the appeal wouldnt change that at all. Besides, the membership (out east) demands appeal. Right now, with less than 200 west members in good, why should we take west seriously?

The way this battle is shaping up there is no reason for the Company to take USAPA seriously for the next three-to-four years unless either USAPA accepts Nicolau or is voted off the property.

Glad your so on top of this, hp, especially since you got no dog in the fight. You want the company not to take us seriously? No better way than a de-cert campaign to bring ALPA back. Then you got your 3-4 years. Not that ALPA has a chance, they dont, but the company will use that as an excuse. Whether we have to accept Nic will settle out in 12-18 months. With the (IMO) excellent potential for winning the pay increase grievance, and (IMO) the slight potential of losing our appeal. The Kirby offer is about a wash with January 2010 pay recovery and the $70M bonus. Last, you totally underestimate the increased solidarity back here with the change in retirement to age 65. It made a huge difference how our top seniority CAs feel about USAPAs direction, an extra $1M in pay and benefits. I fly with them and see.

One big problem on the miniscule chance USAPA getting voted out, whos going to pay all those multi-million$ in damage$? Whos going to pay the West attorney fees?

Oh, and before you suggest again that I am a pilot, work for plaintiff's law firm or have some other nefarious agenda, let me say that it just ain't so. If you come to the damages trial in August we can say hello.

Your agenda is clear, you seem to bask in some kind of Walter Mitty fantasy of self-importance. I probably wont make it. I work for a living and August is busy month on the farm. I doubt if I could get on a West jumpseat anyway.

 

[Nicstolemyjob]

Actually I couldn't care less about the appeal results, only that it wastes time. But a poll (of ALL pilots, not merely members) that directed the BPR to abandon the appeal and the BPR actually abiding by the wishes of the pilots, would go along way toweards proving that ther is a responsive leadership at the top of ALPA and they are willing to set aside personal gain to do the will of the pilots. This would likely increase membership and put their leadership positions in less jeopardy.

The wishes of non-member pilots (east or west) is academic. They have no vote..( read: say) in matters at all...by their own choice.

The very limited scope of their involvement or say in matters renders' their opinions moot.

 

[hp_fa]

A long time ago I was a rep. for ALPA. The most difficult task I had was self-imposed, once a week, call someone I knew did not agree with me. After several hours we still may or may not agree, but a lot of things were accomplished. Other than me getting constantly criticized for "excessive phone bills". Not surprisingly, the issues that arose were rarely identified through a poll.

That, sir, was truly commendable.