US Pilots' Labor Thread 6/18-6/23-Stay on Topic and Observe the Rules

[EastUS]

A call-out that requires real follow-up...notsomuch.

That's been my experience with the west as well

 

[Megasnoop]

Snoop, I don't think that anyone is suggesting that their right to vote will be impeded. However, if he imposes Nicolau in an injunction that takes effect immediately unless it is stayed by him or the Ninth Circuit pending appeal. Frankly I doubt any stay will be granted pending appeal. It sort of defeats the purpose of an injunction.

Big deal. Wake can injunct us till Phoenix freezes over. With the pay increase, who (back East) needs a single contrtact, especially one that not only offers a pay cut, but also the NIC?

I did catch the latest "UN-Biased Facts." Unbiased Facts, not so unbiased, especially when it comes out the same IP address as the now moribund USAPA-Watch.


Unbiased Facts - #8
May 19, 2009

What are the realistic odds USAPA can overturn its DFR “guiltyâ€
conviction and how long will the Appeal and Remanded Federal Court
trial take to complete?
"Fact" #1 A federal district court's final decision generally must be appealed
within 30 days.

Well, that’s a real show-stopper.



"Fact" #2 In an appeal the parties do not have the chance to re-litigate the case before the appeals court.
Well, DUH!

Only issues that were raised in the original trial court can be challenged at the appellate level.

Throughout the trial USAPA submitted evidence the court denied or ignored. This will be heard by the Appeals court. This evidence excluded:

• The 7th circuit Rakestraw decision
• Humphrey v. Morre
• Ford Motor v. Huffman
• ALPA v. O’neil
• There are other cases cited also.

• Also submitted but ignored, the decision of the Federal court of Western NC, dismissing the Breeger case with the same defendants and the same DFR issue.
• Arbitrator Bloch’s ruling of the “third seniority list dispute.†USAPA lost this one (bummer!) and the company can furlough from any list due to separate operations subject only to the limitations of the appropriate contracts and the Transition Agreement.
• The plaintiffs backed out of a late May arbitration hearing on counts one and two. We made sure that the fact that counts one and two which judge Wake did not dismiss but instead gave to arbitrator Bloch because the federal courts have no subject matter jurisdiction over Railway Labor Act minor disputes, have not been heard.
• If arbitrator Bloch rules against the plaintiffs then the bad faith claim is gone another bummer). Federal judge Robert J. Conrad dismissed this claim on May 12th, the recommendation to dismiss from a magistrate judge occurred on April 23, just before trial and Lee Seham made sure it is in the record and therefore appealable.
• A web board poster and one who claims to be a lawyer and who is no friend of USAPA said he saw several actions in court that were the basis for appeal.
• Last but not least are jury instructions that were so convoluted that USAPA couldn’t win, at least not in this court.

“In this case, a general preference for any particular seniority system other than the Nicolau Award is not, standing alone, a legitimate union objectiveâ€

“Revisiting the seniority issue in itself is not a legitimate union objective for USAPA. However, USAPA was entitled to revisit the issue of seniority rights if it was actually motivated to further legitimate union objectives.â€

Doubt it. RAKESTRAW 7TH CIRCUIT AND FORD MOTOR V. HUFFMAN SAYS SO. ONE IN THE 7TH CIRCUIT AND ONE IN THE SUPREME COURT.

“Plaintiffs contend that USAPA's articulated reason for its actions is a pretext for breaching the duty of fair representation. A "pretext" is a reason asserted to justify an
act which is not the true reason for such act.â€

There was no pretext - DOH was a claim since day one. No change there.

"Fact" #3 The body of evidence, argument, testimony, and objections considered in the trial court, is all that may be considered by the appeals panel. This body of evidence is called the record. Every piece of evidence and every argument made by the parties' lawyers is recorded into one big document, the record, which is said to "close" once the trial is over. Once the record is closed, no more evidence can be included. Also, no more objections to evidence can be made. At the appeals level, the court is restricted to review of the record.

The record will show numerous objections to be considered, exhibits denied, case law discarded and the ripeness issue determined by another federal judge, in an opposite manner. Then there is the issue of the findings of an arbitrator that have not yet been considered, and this fact was objected to at length to preserve the record for appeal.
I think it fair to say that USAPA feels much better about the appeal than about dealing with the Learned Judge Neil Wake.

 

[Nicstolemyjob]

Snoop, I don't think that anyone is suggesting that their right to vote will be impeded. However, if he imposes Nicolau in an injunction that takes effect immediately unless it is stayed by him or the Ninth Circuit pending appeal. Frankly I doubt any stay will be granted pending appeal. It sort of defeats the purpose of an injunction.

Off subject, if you please.

Trying to figure out how I run my life now that I am a 3 year pilot at the "new" USAirways.

I have 3 years LOS at "new" USAirways....thats for bidding and pay..( I guess)

My non-rev travel is DOH......(over 24 years)

My Nic seniority is about 1 year.

What do I use for VAC bidding?

I need a break.

 

[RIASU_upe]

Well, of course you are opening "old wounds"...and you know it. You, and all your west buddies have a new campaign underway to attempt to convince the east to drop all this and "move on"...even prechillil wants to help us poor defenseless fools out east. Stevie Wonder could see what is behind all this....and yet you all want to "save us from ourselves".

Wakes remedy will determine what happens next, in the meantime...the grind continues.

Not me, enough gloating, I'd like the west folks on here to zip it and just let USAPA fall off the eventual cliff. I don't care how long it takes, you guys made your bed now sleep in it. Without a doubt, east is suffering the consequences of their actions to the tune of at least $20,000 year for each and every pilot. I'd call that buying their seniority.

upe

 

[prechilill]

aquagreen73s says: Enjoy each day as you don't know whether it will be your last - a CAL captain made the final journey not long ago while flying trans Atlantic. 777 is now turning around for EWR. So sorry.

However, I can't help but notice: he had a little over 20 years with CAL and he was a 777 captain. So, 20 years nets a widebody captain position at CAL (and every other major airline), but at the East it nets you a furlough ticket.

See the problem with DOH?

The airline said the crew on the flight included an additional relief pilot who took the place of the deceased man. The pilot had 21 years of service with Continental, the airline said."


http://www.cnn.com/2009/US/06/18/pilot.dead/index.html

Here's another one:

"Continental Airlines released a statement saying the deceased Newark-based pilot was 61 years old, had 21 years of service with the company and died in flight of natural causes."

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,527076,00.html

That makes him an 88 hire. Furlough fodder on the East, 777 captain at CAL. See the problem with DOH?

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,527076,00.html

Continental Airlines released a statement saying the deceased Newark-based pilot was 60 years old, had 32 years of service with the company and died in flight of natural causes.

Aqua wasn't incorrect, the media was incorrect. There is a difference. Of course, Seham has been incorrect with just about everything he has fed the sheep out east and none of you have figured it out yet. So what is the big deal?

 

[luvn737s]

the minutes tick by....

Naturally, slick explanations are easy. A call-out that requires real follow-up...notsomuch.

It's OK...maybe it was you and you can ask him in your next CQT.

or not.

Nah, you need a break (seriously). I spend plenty of time at the training center and every checkairman and instructor I've talked to says they work exclusively on their own side. But since I spend alot less time there than you do on this board, I'll concede that a checkairman from the east could possibly have conducted some degree of training in PHX. Feel better?

Dealing with USAPA has taught me that nothing is beyond the realm of possibility (but that's what they cling to, right?)

And I hate to blow your hero worship (and there's alot of that out east) but check airmen are just captains who apply for the job, get an override, and fill out paperwork on the pilots they check. It's alot of work, but they aren't Supermen. "Senior daddy's???!!"

Have we been punk'd?

 

[RIASU_upe]

The record will show numerous objections to be considered, exhibits denied, case law discarded and the ripeness issue determined by another federal judge, in an opposite manner. Then there is the issue of the findings of an arbitrator that have not yet been considered, and this fact was objected to at length to preserve the record for appeal.
I think it fair to say that USAPA feels much better about the appeal than about dealing with the Learned Judge Neil Wake.

Sounds like a wrap to me, why waste the time trying to convince all of us weekend lawyers. Good luck and I'll see you in a couple of years. BTW, please have USAPA make that damages check out to upe, that's "u" and a "p" and a "e" all combined to spell upe. Thanks

upe

 

[RIASU_upe]

INTEGRITY

(look it up)

I would say HONOR is more befitting.

 

[HPearlyretiree]

Not me, enough gloating, I'd like the west folks on here to zip it and just let USAPA fall off the eventual cliff. I don't care how long it takes, you guys made your bed now sleep in it. Without a doubt, east is suffering the consequences of their actions to the tune of at least $20,000 year for each and every pilot. I'd call that buying their seniority.

upe

You would like the West to zip it?

Live up to your collective bargaining agreement, be men, not whiners.

Sorry you don't want to allow other members to speak, how dictatorial.

 

[Nicstolemyjob]

Nah, you need a break (seriously). I spend plenty of time at the training center and every checkairman and instructor I've talked to says they work exclusively on their own side. But since I spend alot less time there than you do on this board, I'll concede that a checkairman from the east could possibly have conducted some degree of training in PHX. Feel better?

Dealing with USAPA has taught me that nothing is beyond the realm of possibility (but that's what they cling to, right?)

And I hate to blow your hero worship (and there's alot of that out east) but check airmen are just captains who apply for the job, get an override, and fill out paperwork on the pilots they check. It's alot of work, but they aren't Supermen. "Senior daddy's???!!"

Have we been punk'd?

(still waiting for your PM to discuss the west J/S position with the CKA himself.....)

No?


Gee, I'm so surprised.


To be clear...and I know this will be a shock to you....so sit down.


The "rank/title" isn't what gets respect.

(And this is where you will fade away.)

The "tenure" at a carrier is what commands respect...not the title. Any (....) can chase a title

Even you.

 

[RIASU_upe]

You would like the West to zip it?

Live up to your collective bargaining agreement, be men, not whiners.

Sorry you don't want to allow other members to speak, how dictatorial.

Yes, I am a west pilot and I'd like for the westies to fade into the night and let USAPA self-destruct. Most of the dialogue on this board is counterproductive and serves no other purpose than to fuel ones ego and self-righteousness.

That's my entitled opinion of course.

upe

 

[hp_fa]

What do I use for VAC bidding?

Heck, you spend 2-4 nights a week in luxury hotels with wonderful food and free ground transportation to/from work while you are away. Who needs a vacation?

As for my other point I apologize if you missed my technical point. However it appears that Nicolau didn't.

 

[Nicstolemyjob]

Heck, you spend 2-4 nights a week in luxury hotels with wonderful food and free ground transportation to/from work while you are away. Who needs a vacation?

As for my other point I apologize if you missed my technical point. However it appears that Nicolau didn't.

No...I'm interested in YOUR specific point about my seniority with a 1987 hire date.

YOU

I know what Nicolau thinks.

I want you to elaborate on my 3 years at this airline.

You wax eloquent about what you "speculate" will or should happen all day long...week after week.

I ask you to elaborate on a point YOU made.....

And you punt and send me to the Nic.

So "west" of you.

 

[RIASU_upe]

No...I'm interested in YOUR specific point about my seniority with a 1987 hire date.

YOU

I know what Nicolau thinks.

I want you to elaborate on my 3 years at this airline.

Why do you compare where you stand on the seniority list with the pilot right next to you on the NIC? Is that really a measure of your TRUE seniority. Airline pilot seniority lists are vastly different from one carrier to the next, the only marked difference is the very last guy on the US Air pilot seniority list was with the Company, what, 18 years, at the time of merge? EVERY other Major airline had a seniority list with normal demographic distribution comparable to AWA. Why is that? Why is it that after 18 years with US Air the best you could do is the bottom of the list? Are you better off now since the merger?

 

[Nicstolemyjob]

Why do you compare where you stand on the seniority list with the pilot right next to you on the NIC? Is that really a measure of your TRUE seniority. Airline pilot seniority lists are vastly different from one carrier to the next, the only marked difference is the very last guy on the US Air pilot seniority list was with the Company, what, 18 years, at the time of merge? EVERY other Major airline had a seniority list with normal demographic distribution comparable to AWA. Why is that? Why is it that after 18 years with US Air the best you could do is the bottom of the list? Are you better off now since the merger?

Because, by all rights, I should be able to compare myself on the Nic with the guys "right next to me" and under the Nic, I can't.

If you dont get why, I can't help you.


Edit: sorry hp..I see the questions got too tough.

Maybe tomorrow you will be able to explain yourself and all the rest to me with clarity.