nic4us "...in less than 5 and more likely 2 years, the east is going to have a very serious problem. A very large % will be over 60 and not be able to fly together. You will need joint ops just to find someone young enough to fly with you. Another problem is the widebody will be full of over 60s. Someone needs some young West captains just to keep their F/O seats..."
As long as separate ops are maintained, there is no problem. East list is separate from west list, as per the recent grievance result. No third list (which I disagree with entirely).
I would postulate in separate ops, mgmt would be 'forced' to hire to fill the east list (cheaper, too). However, if I'm wrong and the cost is higher to hire instead of combining ops, then maybe mgmt will have a reason to start negotiating in earnest.
If it weren't for that damned Nic list....
Poug, your right, Nic4us wrong. this latest debate started with Underpants prediction “85% of the original East list will have retired within 10 years.†While I don’t agree with his %ages, his premise is solid and logical. I heard 85% gone in 10 years too, but that was before age 65 change. At the time of the merger, West median age was about 42, ours 51. Our youngest active pilot May 2005 was 42. I heard their youngest was in his mid 20s. That sounds about right. So now our median age now 55, theirs about 46.
The premise is logical. But Nic4us reply isn’t. Hes grasping at straws. He knows with LOA84 pay rates, we wont ever care about single contract/operations. All west pilots who know about LOA84 pay reinstatement want us to fail in arbitration.
Nic4us...in less than 5 and more likely 2 years, the east is going to have a very serious problem. A very large % will be over 60 and not be able to fly together. You will need joint ops just to find someone young enough to fly with you. Another problem is the widebody will be full of over 60s. Someone needs some young West captains just to keep their F/O seats...
This wont be an east problem. It will be a company problem, not subject to seniority arguments.
“Issues such as pilot seniority are not considered valid reasons for noncomplianceâ€. That’s the FAA sticking their nose in our business. Most of our Int’l wide-body flying is augmented crews. The FAA has weighed in saying "
under Title 49 of the United States Code (49 U.S.C.), § 44729©(1), a pilot who has attained 60 years of age may serve as a PIC for part 121 operations between the United States and another country only if there is another pilot assigned to the flight deck crew who has not yet attained 60 years of age.
A pilot younger than age 60 does not have to be on the flight deck when a PIC over age 60 is on the flight deck. However, ICAO and the FAA suggest that a pilot under age 60 be at the controls (a crew duty position) during critical phases of the flight (such as below 10,000 feet). The FAA expects air carriers and PICs to use best scheduling practices and crew management to ensure maximum compliance with this recommendation. Issues such as pilot seniority are not considered valid reasons for noncompliance." (InFO 07023 DATE 12/20/07 U.S. Department of Transportation Flight Standards Service Washington, DC Federal Aviation Administration
Subject: Two Legal Interpretations Regarding the Age 65 Law Effective 12/13/2007)
Im sure by “be at the controls†they mean in either of the two pilot seats, not actually being the pilot flying. My read is FAA is saying is only 1 of 3 has to be under 60. In fact, the under 60 could be sitting in the jumpseat, even below 10,000, with 2 60+ers in the pilot seats. Recommendations arent FARs. Just based on the 330 crews I fly with (Im 52) and looking at their retirement ages on the seniority list, not much chance of conflict for at least another 4 years. 2011 to 2015 is a slight conflict time, but then it tapers off as our median age advancement tapers off. Anyone wanting the seniority list data can contact their PBR like I do, if they bother to join and pay dues. Issues such as pilot seniority are not considered valid reasons for noncompliance. So we wont need “joint ops just to find someone young enough to fly with you.†What we cant supply from our current list, we can supply from new-hires or maybe even west pilots coming over at the bottom of our list, as long as we’re still under separate ops.
I understand where Nic4us and the rest of them are coming from. This NIC “win†of theirs, even with the harshest of “legal†penalties/remedies/damages, whatever, may not get them to the big$$ 330 left seat before we’re single contract. Wake cant make a single contract happen. He cant implement any part of NIC until we’re single contract. Who knows, but Wakes final rulings might make it not worth the expense of appealing.
