US Pilots' Labor Thread 6/18-6/23-Stay on Topic and Observe the Rules

[cleardirect]

We all know post-merger new-hires come back at the bottom of the list, either list. Non-probations should have their choices of where theyre recalled, in seniority order. But Odell, even with a 1975 date, would come East at the bottom of the list. His NIC "number" is useless in separate ops. If he chose east, hes making $20+K more a year as a 5-year line holder (with LOA84 rates). For the new-hires still on probation, I think they go East or West based on company assignment, not seniority. Imagine being stuck West and looking at losing thousands of $$ while in separate ops.

Again. You are assuming that usapa can win the arbitration over wages.

What happens to your theory if they lose? What happens if usapa runs across a senile old arbitrator or a biased arbitrator? With no pay raise in the future without a contract. How does that change your future?

The third list was plain language. But usapa lost T/A8. LOA93 wage return is much less then plain and clear.

 

[Phoenix]

Why should the company intervene when for them it's "Heads I win, Tails you lose" Like I said ultimately it all comes down to the coin for someone, someplace that's involved in this debacle.

Well then... your premise is based on the fact that there will always be a fight... why waste your breath about telling people to stop fighting.

 

[Phoenix]

...I don't know if ...

You were the last to see it?

 

[Phoenix]

Your memory is short. The West supported pay parity up until the East withdrew from joint negotiations in 2007. Your side declared war on us so why would we support anything for you now?

We may as well ask why American pilots should do anything for TWA pilots?

 

[hp_fa]

You were the last to see it?

Sorry, but I don't follow what you were saying...

 

[Megasnoop]

nic4us "...in less than 5 and more likely 2 years, the east is going to have a very serious problem. A very large % will be over 60 and not be able to fly together. You will need joint ops just to find someone young enough to fly with you. Another problem is the widebody will be full of over 60s. Someone needs some young West captains just to keep their F/O seats..."

As long as separate ops are maintained, there is no problem. East list is separate from west list, as per the recent grievance result. No third list (which I disagree with entirely).
I would postulate in separate ops, mgmt would be 'forced' to hire to fill the east list (cheaper, too). However, if I'm wrong and the cost is higher to hire instead of combining ops, then maybe mgmt will have a reason to start negotiating in earnest.
If it weren't for that damned Nic list....

Poug, your right, Nic4us wrong. this latest debate started with Underpants prediction “85% of the original East list will have retired within 10 years.†While I don’t agree with his %ages, his premise is solid and logical. I heard 85% gone in 10 years too, but that was before age 65 change. At the time of the merger, West median age was about 42, ours 51. Our youngest active pilot May 2005 was 42. I heard their youngest was in his mid 20s. That sounds about right. So now our median age now 55, theirs about 46.

The premise is logical. But Nic4us reply isn’t. Hes grasping at straws. He knows with LOA84 pay rates, we wont ever care about single contract/operations. All west pilots who know about LOA84 pay reinstatement want us to fail in arbitration.

Nic4us...in less than 5 and more likely 2 years, the east is going to have a very serious problem. A very large % will be over 60 and not be able to fly together. You will need joint ops just to find someone young enough to fly with you. Another problem is the widebody will be full of over 60s. Someone needs some young West captains just to keep their F/O seats...

This wont be an east problem. It will be a company problem, not subject to seniority arguments. “Issues such as pilot seniority are not considered valid reasons for noncomplianceâ€. That’s the FAA sticking their nose in our business. Most of our Int’l wide-body flying is augmented crews. The FAA has weighed in saying "under Title 49 of the United States Code (49 U.S.C.), § 44729©(1), a pilot who has attained 60 years of age may serve as a PIC for part 121 operations between the United States and another country only if there is another pilot assigned to the flight deck crew who has not yet attained 60 years of age.

A pilot younger than age 60 does not have to be on the flight deck when a PIC over age 60 is on the flight deck. However, ICAO and the FAA suggest that a pilot under age 60 be at the controls (a crew duty position) during critical phases of the flight (such as below 10,000 feet). The FAA expects air carriers and PICs to use best scheduling practices and crew management to ensure maximum compliance with this recommendation. Issues such as pilot seniority are not considered valid reasons for noncompliance." (InFO 07023 DATE 12/20/07 U.S. Department of Transportation Flight Standards Service Washington, DC Federal Aviation Administration
Subject: Two Legal Interpretations Regarding the Age 65 Law Effective 12/13/2007)

Im sure by “be at the controls†they mean in either of the two pilot seats, not actually being the pilot flying. My read is FAA is saying is only 1 of 3 has to be under 60. In fact, the under 60 could be sitting in the jumpseat, even below 10,000, with 2 60+ers in the pilot seats. Recommendations arent FARs. Just based on the 330 crews I fly with (Im 52) and looking at their retirement ages on the seniority list, not much chance of conflict for at least another 4 years. 2011 to 2015 is a slight conflict time, but then it tapers off as our median age advancement tapers off. Anyone wanting the seniority list data can contact their PBR like I do, if they bother to join and pay dues. Issues such as pilot seniority are not considered valid reasons for noncompliance. So we wont need “joint ops just to find someone young enough to fly with you.†What we cant supply from our current list, we can supply from new-hires or maybe even west pilots coming over at the bottom of our list, as long as we’re still under separate ops.

I understand where Nic4us and the rest of them are coming from. This NIC “win†of theirs, even with the harshest of “legal†penalties/remedies/damages, whatever, may not get them to the big$$ 330 left seat before we’re single contract. Wake cant make a single contract happen. He cant implement any part of NIC until we’re single contract. Who knows, but Wakes final rulings might make it not worth the expense of appealing.

 

[nic4us]

Poug, your right, Nic4us wrong. this latest debate started with Underpants prediction “85% of the original East list will have retired within 10 years.†While I don’t agree with his %ages, his premise is solid and logical.

The premise is logical. But Nic4us reply isn’t. Hes grasping at straws. He knows with LOA84 pay rates, we wont ever care about single contract/operations. All west pilots who know about LOA84 pay reinstatement want us to fail in arbitration.

This wont be an east problem. It will be a company problem, not subject to seniority arguments.

I understand where Nic4us and the rest of them are coming from. This NIC “win†of theirs, even with the harshest of “legal†penalties/remedies/damages, whatever, may not get them to the big$$ 330 left seat before we’re single contract. Wake cant make a single contract happen. He cant implement any part of NIC until we’re single contract. Who knows, but Wakes final rulings might make it not worth the expense of appealing.

My original intent was to say to underpants that his numbers were wrong, and it appears that you agree with me. My typical MO is when someone throws out a somewhat absurd hypothetial, is to reply with another absurdly reaching scenario.

Actually, I do hope you get loa84, but do not think you will.

The age 60 issue would actually be a company problem, to which east may not like the solution.

I am not seeking the A330, and even under Nic, could not hold it probably til after you retire, and by that time I will be the over 60 pilot looking for someone young enough to fly with me.

 

[cleardirect]

Poug, your right, Nic4us wrong. this latest debate started with Underpants prediction “85% of the original East list will have retired within 10 years.â€￾ While I don’t agree with his %ages, his premise is solid and logical. I heard 85% gone in 10 years too, but that was before age 65 change. At the time of the merger, West median age was about 42, ours 51. Our youngest active pilot May 2005 was 42. I heard their youngest was in his mid 20s. That sounds about right. So now our median age now 55, theirs about 46.

The numbers I have are close to yours. But mine are slightly different.

As of last year the average age was 53 east 48 west.

 

[Megasnoop]

Again. You are assuming that usapa can win the arbitration over wages. What happens to your theory if they lose? What happens if usapa runs across a senile old arbitrator or a biased arbitrator? With no pay raise in the future without a contract. How does that change your future?

If we lose, Ill sell the boat. If we agree to a senile old or biased arbitrator, Ill sell the boat before we lose. If we win Ill trade up for a bigger boat, because I know that upgrade is just around the corner. I know, your hoping we lose.

The third list was plain language. But usapa lost T/A8. LOA93 wage return is much less then plain and clear.

Like the rest of TA, the "third list" had some intent issues. They made the case, and the arbitrator agreed, that the TA was never supposed to be going as long as it did, never anticipated furloughs before a single agreementand that the "third list" never made sense with 2 lists. It only made sense with 1 (a single) list. But remember, it was your side that pushed us to arbitrate that 3rd list. I always thought it was a loser.

You throw in intent and usually the union has a hard time winning. LOA93 language is quite clear on pay reinstatement and weve got great notes, great intent. We also got ALPA concessionary contract language/intent right out of ALPAs own policy manual on concessionary contract . Yeah, they actually have a section of ALPA policy manual dealing exclusively with concessionary contracts. Last, we have 75 years of ALPA past practice on concessionary contracts on our side. Pay concession expiration disputes with reinstatement timelines have been arbitrated before. We couldnt find any that the company won. But please do your own investigation, give me an example where Im wrong. Dont just take my word for it, take the word of a very smart lawyer/pilot who negotiated the concessions along with ace attorneys from ALPAs Cohen,Wies and Simon.

 

[oscarjazz]

Again. You are assuming that usapa can win the arbitration over wages.

What happens to your theory if they lose? What happens if usapa runs across a senile old arbitrator or a biased arbitrator? With no pay raise in the future without a contract. How does that change your future?

The third list was plain language. But usapa lost T/A8. LOA93 wage return is much less then plain and clear.

Actually, it is pretty clear that the USAPA interpretation is way off. LOA 84 had a base rate and then a series of adjustments to those rates. Those adjustments were frozen out in LOA 93 until Jan 1, 2010. The base rates were then adjusted down by 18% as of the freeze date (May 2004) with no sunset on that reduction. The only meaning of this language is that the contractual raise schedule in LOA 84 will become effective again in 2010. That means that the East pilots should get a 3% raise in May and every May after that. Any interpretation of a snapback is just fantasy and is no way supported by the language in the documents. It they meant to have a snapback, they would have put it in there.

If this language was the intended outcome, then why did the East get so upset about pay parity back in 2008? All they had to do was wait a year of so and they would have parity +++. I just don't see how any lawyer or Contract Admin guy would even hope to think this is a winnable case. I see this as a USAPA scheme to get everyone to forget how badly they are doing right now. Go back to fighting about the Nicolau award.

 

[Phoenix]

Actually,,,

8 May 09? :blink:

 

[cleardirect]

If this language was the intended outcome, then why did the East get so upset about pay parity back in 2008? All they had to do was wait a year of so and they would have parity +++. I just don't see how any lawyer or Contract Admin guy would even hope to think this is a winnable case. I see this as a USAPA scheme to get everyone to forget how badly they are doing right now. Go back to fighting about the Nicolau award.

That says it all. It is a distraction. Nothing more. This will keep the loyal followers in line for another year. Holding out hope with no plan B.

 

[EastUS]

I know, your hoping we lose.

Of course they are...in the fullest spirit of showing all concerned exactly how useless these people would ever be as "fellow pilots" in ANY conflict with management. I, for one, am very impressed

 

[prechilill]

Actually, it is pretty clear that the USAPA interpretation is way off.

There are many things proclaimed by USAPA which are way off the mark. Aside from the elephant in the room, the DFR, USAPA has been feeding their ardent supporters carrots since day one. As one gets chewed up they move on to the next one. As long as thinking does not take place, the sheep will be happy. What seems so blatantly obvious to us is conveniently missed or ignored by the USAPA cheerleaders around here. You bring up one great point. When you look closer at the people we are dealing with it makes more sense for the "eternal hope" that their fortunes will change and everything will come out ok. Take this board for example: We have a 51 year old copilot who posts incessantly regardless of what the facts are, and another copilot who whines for two days about his imagined seniority which he feels he was robbed of by Nicolau. Another guy who is a professional carrot grabber and thinks LOA 84 rates are set in stone for him on January 1, 2010. All three of them do not live in the real world. We see it, observers like HPFA, BB and Clue by Four see it, Nicolau saw it and I think Judge Wake probably saw it too. Reality escapes them which makes it hard for them to understand what is happening in the world around them.
Our differences are irreconcilable with these people because you cannot negotiate with rage and anger. Take a look at divorce court- we can see the people here are the same way and they are so angry over a perceived injustice they will never think logically or behave civilly. We will never be able to work with them. How can you when their chief dictator comes out with a missive a few days after Addington declaring victory? These guys lash out at anyone who challenges them or queries their nonfactual statements. In the end, it doesn't matter much because they are all aging and every day the numbers difference between the two groups decreases. Eventually, the rational minds will far outweigh the irrational zealots and maybe then we will be able to unite as a pilot group and move forward together. Time is on our side.

 

[luvn737s]

Of course they are...in the fullest spirit of showing all concerned exactly how useless these people would ever be as "fellow pilots" in ANY conflict with management. I, for one, am very impressed

Conflict with management??? Oh, I'd love to see a strike vote under this crew. We all need more laughter (hint to Cleary: we're not laughing WITH you...)

How can you cultivate a civil war and then complain about a lack of unity? Please explain.