US Pilots labor thread 5/3-

[hp_fa]

I have been searching for the exact fleet numbers for east and West on the day of the merger.

I took a look and the best I could do for now is lift these numbers and dates from the 2005 Annual Report.

As of December 31, 2005, US Airways operated 232 jet aircraft and 18 regional jet aircraft. During 2005, US Airways provided regularly scheduled service or seasonal service at 91 airports in the continental United States, Canada, the
Caribbean, Latin America and Europe. As of December 31, 2005, the US Airways Express network served 130 airports in the United States, Canada and the Bahamas, including approximately 39 airports also served by US Airways. During 2005, US Airways Express air carriers had approximately 18.7 million passengers boarding their planes, including 1.9 million passengers on US Airways' MidAtlantic division

.

America West Holdings, a Delaware corporation formed in 1996, is a holding company that owns all of the stock of AWA, a Delaware corporation formed in 1981. AWA accounted for most of America West Holdings' revenues and expenses prior to the merger in September 2005. Prior to the merger and based on 2005 ASMs and RPMs, AWA was the eighth largest passenger airline and the second largest low-cost carrier in the United States. AWA was the largest low-cost carrier operating a hub-and-spoke network before the merger, with hubs in Phoenix, Arizona and Las Vegas, Nevada. As of December 31, 2005, AWA operated a fleet of 141 aircraft and served 64 destinations in North America, including eight in Mexico, two in Hawaii, four in Canada and one in Costa Rica.

 

[luvn737s]

I agree, Once ALL avenues are exhausted and all hope is lost. Then we vote and move on.

wopr

The problem is, the east cannot dictate when we vote. Doing so harms the west's ability to achieve contractual gains.

Now, both sides could vote for an entirely new union which would pledge to bring a contract to the pilots. I think such a union would pass, or a least the threat of losing would prompt USAPA to do what they are obligated to do: serve ALL US pilots.

Why should the west wait for the east to lose hope? USAPA never ran on that platform.

 

[nic4us]

I took a look and the best I could do for now is lift these numbers and dates from the 2005 Annual Report.

.

Thanks, HP

I thought the west brought around 140 aircraft, and I knew the TA fleet mins for the West started with a 140 number with conditions for reducing 10% less than the number after one year etc.....

Now all I need is the current fleet.

And while we are at it, does anyone know the current number of east pilots on the east seniority list not counting any furloughs? I am looking for the number one number above the most senior furloughed east pilot, including folks on medical and in the training dept. etc. not just current active bidders. But the total number of east active bidders would be good to know also.

 

[TheBadCat1313]

I'm pretty sure the west had 147 airplanes in May 05 when the merger was announced. We're at 124 now and the TA minimum is 120.

 

[Barrister]

Since you are in the mood for telling us how it is, could you please explain why 95% of east captains and all the f/os could come to the same uninformed conclusion that they would somehow stagnate because they are now part of a slotted list.

Specifically, could you explain to me how the top former 1000 east pilots, who on the Nic, would still not have a seniority above 1250, are completely detrimentaly devasted by the Nic when all that happened was 250 West pilots of similar age, were integrated in the second 500 of that group at the same time that the company's fleet added 140 aircraft and 2 domiciles, in which these 250 former West pilots were part?

For that matter, how is it the former east pilot who had a seniority of 1500 out of 2900,(a number greater than 50%) is now faced with career ruin, when s/he now has a seniority of approximately 2000 out 4800,(a number very much less than 50%) when the entire 500 pilots who were put in front of them are already captains in a different domicile, and the vast majority (1380) of the West pilots are junior to him/her.

Good grief .......have you not been paying attention...they were NOT of similar age and it was way more than 250.
and......PARKER WILL SHUT OR DRASTICALLY CUT YOUR BASE BEFORE THE INK IS DRY.......
GETTING TIRED OF POINTING OUT THE OBVIOUS TO YOU

VNIIMN
NPJB

 

[Phoenix]

The problem is, the east cannot dictate when we vote. ..

The problem is your premise that there even exists an East or West that can determine when a contract goes out for ratification. Simply not the case. The BPR decides, and there is only one of them.

As to your "contractual gains" that the BPR is allegedly keeping you from voting on... that assumes there exists a contract opportunity that contains "contractual gains". Seeing how airline management has been getting concessionary contracts for more than two decades, seeing how the Obamaconomy is headed, and seeing that the company proposal is Kirby or lower, it does not appear that you are being denied any opportunity to vote on "contractual gains."

If you run back to Wake to get him to force a vote (Ha!) based on the fact that you are missing out on your "contractual gains" then there is only one possible way in which you are missing out on any gains that could be judged "contractual gains". The Nic. Alas, but of course the Nic has always been assumed NOT to be a "contractual gain" because it is eminently fair and equitable, according to all of the inestimable warp and weft of ALPA's glorious constitution and bylaws, backed by the timeless integrity and courage of all its officers. Gasp! Do they not yet still sing its beauty? Is there yet no longer reason for our faith to remain unmoved by their promises of undying support (they did pinky promise didn't they)?

Well I suppose we could all place our hope in Wake to have the fortitude to contradict himself in order to agree with himself.

One vote you can have now.. the consolation vote just below this post.

 

[Phoenix]

Thanks, HP

I thought the west brought around 140 aircraft, and I knew the TA fleet mins for the West started with a 140 number with conditions for reducing 10% less than the number after one year etc.....

Now all I need is the current fleet.

And while we are at it, does anyone know the current number of east pilots on the east seniority list not counting any furloughs? I am looking for the number one number above the most senior furloughed east pilot, including folks on medical and in the training dept. etc. not just current active bidders. But the total number of east active bidders would be good to know also.

Wow, that's a lot of tough questions. Not sure of all those answers but you can get a two cheeseburger meal, large size at McDonald's for $5.99. I've been studying for my interviews. Trying to be ready to stand out among all my peers when the time comes. Are you ready? Don't be caught unprepared!

 

[Freebird]

CLEAR D, whats the rush? Sounds just like more jiberish, like the "lets get ALPA back campaign of some EVP candidate" With no merger in sight and US getting squeezed by it's BIGGER rivals economically, maybe our " we saved you, you have no integrity( luv that one) montra will bode well for both sides, ALPA was voted away for very good reasons, bringing the problem BACK won't move this group forward! Time and Closure will! Your definitions of those terms because they satisfy YOUR needs don't apply to all,! CHILL , this train aint goin anywhere anytime soon but FREUND did say the risk is where? MM!

Your posts remind me of Charlie Browns parents/teachers:

Whaa-waa waa, whaaa, waaa waaaa waaaa whaaaaa

You make no sense 'bro'; solve the argument in your head before you post gibberish and you may sound a little more reasonable.

 

[Barrister]

Good grief .......have you not been paying attention...they were NOT of similar age and it was way more than 250.
and......PARKER WILL SHUT OR DRASTICALLY CUT YOUR BASE BEFORE THE INK IS DRY.......
GETTING TIRED OF POINTING OUT THE OBVIOUS TO YOU

VNIIMN
NPJB

By the way...just pulled the NIC list out of the birdcage.......looked up Colello and Odell ....you know the new hire
just senior to the 17 year guy..........
in 9 days Collello will be 57 years old. In 5 months and 29 days Odell will be .................WAIT FOR IT HERE IT COMES
you ready ........................39 whopping years old. Colello will fly here 8 more years and Odell will fly here 26 more years, yet Odell is senior
YEA SPORTS FANS THAT WORKS FOR US LETS VOTE.
Plus under NIC you have 80 guys who can hold 330 Capt SENIOR to our bottom reserve. Dudes, it ain't gonna happen!!!!!!!!!!!

VNIIMN
NPJB

 

[TheBadCat1313]

Good grief .......have you not been paying attention...they were NOT of similar age and it was way more than 250.
and......PARKER WILL SHUT OR DRASTICALLY CUT YOUR BASE BEFORE THE INK IS DRY.......
GETTING TIRED OF POINTING OUT THE OBVIOUS TO YOU

VNIIMN
NPJB

So lets assume for a minute that this is true.

Kind of makes Mowrey's conditions and restrictions for west pilots moot, doesn't it? What good is a protected captain position if the base is downsized or eliminated? The C & R's also proposed that with a 25% reduction, all the protections for west pilots would go away. In your scenario, that would leave senior west captains being downgraded and forced to an east base. Of course, Randy also included a clause to allow east pilots to swoop into PHX and take captain jobs if he was wrong and the PHX domicile grew. Real nice. Protect yourselves whichever way it goes. Do you really think west pilots, a jury, George Nicolau and Judge wake are stupid? That kind of arrogance is why you have lost, continue to lose and will lose going forward.

I actually don't disagree that PHX may eventually be reduced in size as a domicile. But it will be because the flying will be transferred (even more) to the east when the company is not under the TA fleet minimums. IMO, you will NOT see a reduction in the amount of actual flying that is performed from, to or through PHX.

 

[luvn737s]

The problem is your premise that there even exists an East or West that can determine when a contract goes out for ratification. Simply not the case. The BPR decides, and there is only one of them.

A jury was able to quickly determine that USAPA is biased in favor of the east pilots at the expense of the west. I'm sure you heard about this.

So explain why you are willing to continue to support an organization that will not or can not improve the contract under which you operate? And if you support that organization solely because their intransigence protects your job at the expense of pilots (east and west) who would prefer to improve their careers, then contact AOL and they will be happy to explain exactly what a DFR suit is and why they won.

 

[nic4us]

Good grief .......have you not been paying attention...they were NOT of similar age and it was way more than 250.
and......PARKER WILL SHUT OR DRASTICALLY CUT YOUR BASE BEFORE THE INK IS DRY.......
GETTING TIRED OF POINTING OUT THE OBVIOUS TO YOU

VNIIMN
NPJB

Before you put the Nic back in the birdcage, you might want to take a look again.

Of the top 1000 names on the Nic, 192 are West. Much less than 250 and they are of "similar age".

Of the top 1250 names, 284 are West.

Of the top 1500 names, 370 are West.

Of the top 2000 names, 582 are West.

Of the top 2500 names, 768 are West.

It is not until 3043 names until you get to 947 West pilots, the half way point of the old West list. That means 2096 former east pilots are senior to the top half of the West list. Something to the tune of 75% of all former east pilots who were employed on the date of the merger are senior to the top Half of the West list.

Sorry to rain on your "the east has been victimized parade" but the east got a better deal from Nic than they should have, and you are starting to sound like a disgruntled furloughee who was unable to steal a West pilots job.

Want to look at the bottom of the list? Okay, here is one for you.

Monda was your bottom guy. One number seperated him from Colello, who was furloughed. They were probably hired the exact same day. They likely had the exact same DOH. Why was Colello furloughed and when Monda was still employed? Obvious answere. Because Monda was senior to Colello.

Well here is the news flash. Odell, who also was employed, is also senior to Colello. I do not care how nice a guy Colello is, I do not care how old Colello is, I do not care when Colello was hired, I do not care if he has grandchildren. He is not senior to Odell, today, tommorrow, in 8 years when he retires, or in 26 years when Odell retires. Says me, USAirways, 1894 of my fellow West pilots, an undisclosed number of east pilots, an arbitrator, a Federal Judge, a jury, and a standing Federal injunction against the fake union.

So you can keep weeping until the day you retire ( as long as you pay the coming assesments) or the day you quit. I no longer care. But the fake union is not going to rearrange the seniority at LCC and steal Odell's, or any other West pilots seniority or position. They have all ready done far more damage than they can afford, and will not be allowed to bring the rest of us down to their lowlife level.

 

[nic4us]

Plus under NIC you have 80 guys who can hold 330 Capt SENIOR to our bottom reserve. Dudes, it ain't gonna happen!!!!!!!!!!!

Oh, One more thing, of those 80 guys who can hold 330 capt. Because they were of "similar age" probably only 10 of them are not retired, and that is way less than the amount required to crew 1/3 of the additional 5 330's the east has aquired since the merger. In other words the fake union has stolen the seats that belong to those 10 pilots, along with Odell's seat and 142 other West pilots jobs.

Way to go usapa, you truley are a POS union. Overly deserving of your DFR conviction.

 

[nic4us]

Colello will fly here 8 more years and Odell will fly here 26 more years, yet Odell is senior

One more thought. You are aware that Odell is currently furloughed, and has been for around 20 months, right?

So what you are pointing out in your post is that usapa has stolen Odell's job for the last 20 months, and for the foreseable future, so that Colello, a pilot you just admitted is the less senior, could be recalled and remain employed. Are you suggesting that Odell will just have to simply forfeit years of his employment so that the junior Colello can remain employed because he happens to be older and nearer retirement?

And the convicts at usapa and their legal brain Seeham, cannot figure out why they are guilty of failing Odell in their duty of fair representation to him.

 

[cleardirect]

Good grief .......have you not been paying attention...they were NOT of similar age and it was way more than 250.
and......PARKER WILL SHUT OR DRASTICALLY CUT YOUR BASE BEFORE THE INK IS DRY.......
GETTING TIRED OF POINTING OUT THE OBVIOUS TO YOU

VNIIMN
NPJB

Barrister you really need to take an honest look at the Nicolau list. Really way more? Actually 202 not 250.

The first 1000 on the Nicolau only has 202 west pilots.

Position Name DOB
W) 999 Cafarelli 12/1949
E) 1000 Hull 7/1955

There are 202 west pilots in the first 1000. West pilots 20.0%

E) 1499 Harris 2/1947
W) 1500 Engel 10/1947

There are 450 west pilots in the first 1500. West pilots 30%

E) 1999 Mikita 1/1960
W) 2000 Brewer 11/1954

There are 693 west pilots in the first 2000. West pilots 34.6%

W) 2499 Kelsey 12/1956
E) 2500 Dowmont 12/1952

There are 915 west pilots in the first 2500. West pilots 36.6%

E) 2999 Bromka 8/1954
W) 3000 Orenga 1/1963

There are 1096 west pilots in the first 3000. West pilot 36.5%

Now take a look at the facts. The first 3000 pilot 2/3 are east pilots. So you guys can stop the tears about all those west pilots coming to take your spots or that you will never upgrade ect. Now take a look at the birthdates. The first one the east guy is younger kind of blows your theory. The next one is within 8 months not years. The 2000 level the east guy is younger again. Not until you get to the 2500 pilot level do we start to see much divergence.

When you get to 4000 there are still only 1525 west pilots. 38.1%. At the bottom of the active list. Dave O Dell is number 4769 with a total of 1853 west pilots. For a total of 38.8% So you see that the east gets 2/3 of all upgrades. So when an west pilot gets moved up 2 other east pilots are in front of him. You all can stop crying about never upgrading.

edit: Looks like nic already answered this. Our numbers are close but slightly different. But you can see that the east theory of total despair because of the Nicolau is false.