US Pilots labor thread 5/3-

[Poug Darker]

One more time. No comment please. Telling you why this is the way it is. The east pilots, especially f/o and 95% capt are not going for a contract with the Nic for this reason. A contract now with the Nic gives a small raise. Short term. Long term, no upgrades for most f/o' s ever. No widebody for the capt mid and lower tier. Always working weekends and holidays, and bottom vacation. So you give up a capt upgrade, and widebody for the capt. This negates the short term benefit of a contract now. So it makes no sense for most east pilots, except for the most senior, to want a new deal. The majority are willing to wait the 9th, and especially the LOA 93 grievance, and wait the attrition.This is the truth. If you don't like it, there is nothing anyone, either side can do. I expect the usual commentary, diatribe, lecture, threats of fines, on and on. If you want to know the truth, none of that matters, so take it for what it is worth. This is what you are up against.

I agree 100%

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

CLEAR D, whats the rush? Sounds just like more jiberish, like the "lets get ALPA back campaign of some EVP candidate" With no merger in sight and US getting squeezed by it's BIGGER rivals economically, maybe our " we saved you, you have no integrity( luv that one) montra will bode well for both sides, ALPA was voted away for very good reasons, bringing the problem BACK won't move this group forward! Time and Closure will! Your definitions of those terms because they satisfy YOUR needs don't apply to all,! CHILL , this train aint goin anywhere anytime soon but FREUND did say the risk is where? MM!

 

[N924PS]

I agree 100%

I agree with PiBrat.

If USAPA and Airways can put a decent contract proposal in front of the pilots of USAirways. It will pass.

This has gone on far too long, and ALL USairways pilots need to have an improved contract. Including the Nicolau Award.

But you are certainly free to VNIIMN.

 

[Metroyet]

but FREUND did say the risk is where? MM!

Why do you always quote Freund? Do you have any idea of the context of any of his statements? My feeling is no. You do not. Further, why would you lean so heavily on what one guy has to say about any of this? Even if Freund warned the West of some imagined risk...are you listening....He was WRONG. Just like Lee $eham. Doesn't that fact alone make you want to stop quoting a guy that was 100% incorrect? What is the risk btw? Where is the risk in successfully suing your own bargaining agent that flat out refuses to acknowledge the fact that you have any rights what-so-ever? I see a Permanent Injunction, no risk.

Whatever. This will all be over inside of a year.

 

[Black Swan]

I agree with PiBrat.

If USAPA and Airways can put a decent contract proposal in front of the pilots of USAirways. It will pass.

This has gone on far too long, and ALL USairways pilots need to have an improved contract. Including the Nicolau Award.

But you are certainly free to VNIIMN.

And that is your right to do so. If you wish to vote for a contract with the Nic. then do so if it comes to a vote. I take it for what it is. But I would wager you are in that top 5% that would have no impact from the Nic. And it would be interesting to see if my supposition holds water with regards to the most likely supporters would be East top 5%.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

METRO, my man I really could care less what you think, and yes I read the E-mail it was in, remember about not letting the EAST go under, do we on the WEST hold any VALUE to this FRANCHISE?( Don't see any BIG slot transactions goin on here) Alls I know is WE are a subsidary of USAIR INC( check out your paystub) just like PSA etc! Can be sold off at any time regardless of any injunction, the longer time goes on the greater the odds our call sign will change! FREUND was wrong? So far he IS CORRECT , NO JOINT CONTRACT== NO JOINT LIST! INJUNCTION = USELESS in a fragmentation scenerio! Wake up! (pun intended) If our boy was SO right why is the appeal taking so long! Ripeness,? MM!

 

[BLT]

METRO, my man I really could care less what you think, and yes I read the E-mail it was in, remember about not letting the EAST go under, do we on the WEST hold any VALUE to this FRANCHISE?( Don't see any BIG slot transactions goin on here) Alls I know is WE are a subsidary of USAIR INC( check out your paystub) just like PSA etc! Can be sold off at any time regardless of any injunction, the longer time goes on the greater the odds our call sign will change! FREUND was wrong? So far he IS CORRECT , NO JOINT CONTRACT== NO JOINT LIST! INJUNCTION = USELESS in a fragmentation scenerio! Wake up! (pun intended) If our boy was SO right why is the appeal taking so long! Ripeness,? MM!

I thought we decided that the appeal wasn't taking any longer than usual.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

BL, there sure are alot of WE'S in the world! MM!

 

[Metroyet]

METRO, my man I really could care less what you think, and yes I read the E-mail it was in, remember about not letting the EAST go under, do we on the WEST hold any VALUE to this FRANCHISE?( Don't see any BIG slot transactions goin on here) Alls I know is WE are a subsidary of USAIR INC( check out your paystub) just like PSA etc! Can be sold off at any time regardless of any injunction, the longer time goes on the greater the odds our call sign will change! FREUND was wrong? So far he IS CORRECT , NO JOINT CONTRACT== NO JOINT LIST! INJUNCTION = USELESS in a fragmentation scenerio! Wake up! (pun intended) If our boy was SO right why is the appeal taking so long! Ripeness,? MM!

Sorry I'm having a hard time following you. What. Specifically. is the "Risk" you are under the impression Freund "warned" of? The fact that all pilots will vote on a joint contract isn't news, and it doesn't seem like risk. Nic. or no Nic. wouldn't you agree that if a fragmentation of the company came about that there is a huge pile of risk for everyone? To my knowledge the slot transaction failed...so again, i don't know what you're getting at. The 9th denied the stay...don't see a problem with that? No? Fine.

From what I can ascertain from your post is that you're hoping for something to fragment the company. You're statement that the Nic. is useless in that potential mess is a stretch. Nobody knows how that would play out. You can be sure the West would go straight back into court. Besides, who would be crazy enough to want any piece of your airline without getting seniority figured out first? Who, besides Doug Parker, is that stupid? Besides, any negotiation regarding seniority...ANY negotiations regarding seniority are addressed in the Permanent Injunction against USAPA. Barring Chap. 7, nothing will change that. Put your hope and faith in whatever pleases you. I find Reality to be the most effective.

Oh, your question regarding the West bringing any value to the Franchise seems quite obvious. You still have a job. I'd call that Value wouldn't you? No? Fine.

 

[Black Swan]

Why do you always quote Freund? Do you have any idea of the context of any of his statements? My feeling is no. You do not. Further, why would you lean so heavily on what one guy has to say about any of this? Even if Freund warned the West of some imagined risk...are you listening....He was WRONG. Just like Lee $eham. Doesn't that fact alone make you want to stop quoting a guy that was 100% incorrect? What is the risk btw? Where is the risk in successfully suing your own bargaining agent that flat out refuses to acknowledge the fact that you have any rights what-so-ever? I see a Permanent Injunction, no risk.

Whatever. This will all be over inside of a year.

Myself, I prefer Baptiste and Wilder. This group has got the Wake issue figured out. Especially USAPA being a follow on rep. body, not tied to ALPA or ALPA baggage. (Nic) Either way, this is going to be very interesting.

 

[Barrister]

I don't think we should have a vote until we get a ruling on LOA93. Whether you think our odds are long or short, nothing happens in a vacuum, and the arbitrator will take note of the fact that we are seriously considering the Kirby.

Same goes for the appeal at the 9th, or the MDA lawsuit, or the pension investigation.

Any one - or all of these, depending on the outcome, would sway a vote on either the Kirby or a more attractive contract. Maybe we can't wait for a resolution to all of these issues, but certainly it would be prudent to resolve the first two.

KV

Kirby is dead when you point out to every East pilot (except 924PS that is) that it has NO MIN FLEET clause.
Parker will downsize this baby before the ink is dry....starting with PHX....of course you won't care cause ya got NIC.
Again, my guess any POS passes out West cause it contains your lottery ticket

VNIIMN
NPJB

 

[Barrister]

One more time. No comment please. Telling you why this is the way it is. The east pilots, especially f/o and 95% capt are not going for a contract with the Nic for this reason. A contract now with the Nic gives a small raise. Short term. Long term, no upgrades for most f/o' s ever. No widebody for the capt mid and lower tier. Always working weekends and holidays, and bottom vacation. So you give up a capt upgrade, and widebody for the capt. This negates the short term benefit of a contract now. So it makes no sense for most east pilots, except for the most senior, to want a new deal. The majority are willing to wait the 9th, and especially the LOA 93 grievance, and wait the attrition.This is the truth. If you don't like it, there is nothing anyone, either side can do. I expect the usual commentary, diatribe, lecture, threats of fines, on and on. If you want to know the truth, none of that matters, so take it for what it is worth. This is what you are up against.

Shack 2

VNIIMN
NPJB

 

[Ames]

Interesting bringing the military argument into this.

As a former USAF pilot myself, I recall something called "Date of Rank" that theoretically placed you in a pecking order within your grade.

It never mattered how much full-time active duty vs. reserve bum time you had. You pinned your rank on at a specific date, and even if you wore that uniform all of 12 days a year, you still outranked someone of the same grade who pinned it on a day after you even if he wore it 365 days a year.

Interesting concept. Kind of like Date of Hire. Works fine for the military. Thanks for making the comparison.

Now that's a stretch! You guys are getting desparate.

 

[nic4us]

The West brought 120 airplanes to the merger.

Our Reserve First Officers don't deserve to be senior to the Captains flying those airplanes.

Those Captain's should not be furloughed before our Reserve First Officers.

The 17 year pilot and the new hire should be the first two furloughed if they were at the bottom of their respective lists.

The reason why the 17 year pilot is a Reserve First Officer is because we went from 400 to 230
airplane.

Not to Nicpick, but I believe the West had more like 140 aircraft, with firm orders on 20 more, and options on considerably more than that.

I have been searching for the exact fleet numbers for east and West on the day of the merger. Also, I would like to know the exact fleet count as of today, broken down to east and West. I have seen a recent fleet plan for 2010 but cannot find it, and still would like to know the numbers for 2005 at the time of the merger. If anone can oblige, please post.

 

[nic4us]

One more time. No comment please. Telling you why this is the way it is. The east pilots, especially f/o and 95% capt are not going for a contract with the Nic for this reason. A contract now with the Nic gives a small raise. Short term. Long term, no upgrades for most f/o' s ever. No widebody for the capt mid and lower tier. Always working weekends and holidays, and bottom vacation. So you give up a capt upgrade, and widebody for the capt. This negates the short term benefit of a contract now. So it makes no sense for most east pilots, except for the most senior, to want a new deal. The majority are willing to wait the 9th, and especially the LOA 93 grievance, and wait the attrition.This is the truth. If you don't like it, there is nothing anyone, either side can do. I expect the usual commentary, diatribe, lecture, threats of fines, on and on. If you want to know the truth, none of that matters, so take it for what it is worth. This is what you are up against.

Since you are in the mood for telling us how it is, could you please explain why 95% of east captains and all the f/os could come to the same uninformed conclusion that they would somehow stagnate because they are now part of a slotted list.

Specifically, could you explain to me how the top former 1000 east pilots, who on the Nic, would still not have a seniority above 1250, are completely detrimentaly devasted by the Nic when all that happened was 250 West pilots of similar age, were integrated in the second 500 of that group at the same time that the company's fleet added 140 aircraft and 2 domiciles, in which these 250 former West pilots were part?

For that matter, how is it the former east pilot who had a seniority of 1500 out of 2900,(a number greater than 50%) is now faced with career ruin, when s/he now has a seniority of approximately 2000 out 4800,(a number very much less than 50%) when the entire 500 pilots who were put in front of them are already captains in a different domicile, and the vast majority (1380) of the West pilots are junior to him/her.