US Pilots Labor Thread 4/7 to 4/14- ALL US Pilots Labor Issues Here

[lynyrdskynyrd]

You guys don't understand, usapa can jack anyone and everyone around for as long as they like. That includes appeals courts, and yes, even the Supreme Court itself. And of course, most of all, that poor 190 fo eating at his folk's house.

 

[Pi brat]

Thanks for the reply I understand your train of thought.

Tiger may not of had an east number but we have furloughed pilots who did. They were hired at AWA prior to the merger while furloughed from AAA. They were forced to pick between Nic and their east number once the Nic list was completed, not implemented. To me it does not seem fair they are now furloughed while the six I mention get a little special treatment.

According to the TA, the company would have to recall any furloughed West prior to hiring from the street on the east. It could be argued they would have to recall West pilots to the east, prior to recalling furloughed east new hires.

For now lets just hope we win some arbitrations and have some recall issues to deal with.

I think they had to decide which number to take because their recall came up on the east, not because the of the Nic award, but I could be wrong.

Like so many things at this company, the furloughs have been a mess and I'm not sure anyone has the whole story. I don't think anyone expected the TA to still be in use today, except maybe Doug.

I agree about the arbitrations and if we could get a contract that would probably get all furloughees returned.

 

[ClueByFour]

Of course you mean the appeals court, right?

I'm making the assumption that Wake is a solid judge and there won't be any procedural grounds and that the 9th Circus won't find any other reason to hear an appeal if things don't go USAPA's way.

The jibe, of course, it that a USAPA supporter could say "I'll accept a final and binding decision." History has shown that's absolutely not true.

 

[Metroyet]

PHL Update:

"We are at the end of the journey we have set for ourselves and we have built a successful independent union when naysayers said it could not be done. We have demonstrated through unity and resolve that standing together we can accomplish the impossible. As we have stated in previous updates “failure is not an optionâ€￾. We will face all our obstacles, assume reasonable risks and we will prevail. We have demonstrated this throughout our first year and will continue to work to complete our mission and our goals. It takes your support and unity to accomplish all the successes of our first year."

Which movie have they been watching? USAPAs first anniversary will be punctuated by a landmark failure in court. No contract, an illegal election, no respect, millions lost in litigation, exposure to damages for all east pilots. On and ON. Obviously a resounding success. Do any Easties actually believe this drivel? Do they realize that just because it's written, it isn't necessarily true?

 

[Megasnoop]

Appeal is not automatic. The Ninth Circuit must agree to hear your appeal.

Tiger, the Ninth Circuit Court doesnt need a reason, just a Republican-appointed judge to overrule. Believe it or not, the Ninth Circuit is hearing oral arguments in the appeal of a couple hundred pilots between ages 61 and 65 at "9 a.m., June 9, 2009, in its courtroom 1 in San Francisco," suing on age discrimination. Sounds like a far-fetched case, but with the Ninth Circuit, who knows. (quote courtesy of retired East A-330 CA whose a party to the suit)

Which movie have they been watching? USAPAs first anniversary will be punctuated by a landmark failure in court. No contract, an illegal election, no respect, millions lost in litigation, exposure to damages for all east pilots. On and ON. Obviously a resounding success. Do any Easties actually believe this drivel? Do they realize that just because it's written, it isn't necessarily true?

Metro, I know its hard for you to write without barbed comment, but the RICO stopped the harassment. Win or lose, the DFR will be appealed. No contract? Thank parker and his trained seals. ALPA couldnt put a contract together in 2 1/2 years. Illegal election? Big stretch. No NMB ruling, but USAPA is running the election again. USAPA appeals Board ruled fairly. Schoppaul and his parade of performing barnyard animals should win hands down. The goat gets my vote. Litigation expenses? Not a $ that wasnt generated in response to West actions. But your classic: "exposure to damages for all east pilots." Ridiculous. Cite one case in labor history where members/non-members were ever forced to pay damages, Metro. Your going to force East non-members to pay personal damages? Absurd. Even members cant be held personally responsible. In the words of Al Gore: "no controlling legal authority." Worst case, USAPA just goes away. Isnt that what you want anyway? USAPA goes away, the company can do whatever it wants. Snoopster

 

[banshee74]

You guys don't understand, usapa can jack anyone and everyone around for as long as they like. That includes appeals courts, and yes, even the Supreme Court itself. And of course, most of all, that poor 190 fo eating at his folk's house.

For all the rhetoric, discussion, vitriol, etc. on this website, the one thing I just cannot comprehend is the seeming easy ability of some to completely belittle a fellow professional pilot (after all this comes to a resolution, isn't that what we are still supposed to be?) that has no control over what is happening to his career right now.

To make a comment like this about the "poor 190 F/O" just to make an argument point on a website with the only exposure being his keyboard possibly exploding is beyond what should be the threshold of a professional pilot.

I have told my reps and the NC that I would be willing to give up some contract gains for folks in my seniority (500) and give it to increase the abomination of a pay scale for the 190 F/O's. At some point in the, hopefully near, future this seniority debacle will come to a resolution in one way or another. Where do we go then???

 

[nic4us]

Tiger, the Ninth Circuit Court doesnt need a reason, just a Republican-appointed judge to overrule.
Win or lose, the DFR will be appealed.

No NMB ruling, but USAPA is running the election again. USAPA appeals Board ruled fairly. Schoppaul and his parade of performing barnyard animals should win hands down. The goat gets my vote.

But your classic: "exposure to damages for all east pilots." Ridiculous. Cite one case in labor history where members/non-members were ever forced to pay damages, Metro. Your going to force East non-members to pay personal damages? Absurd. Even members cant be held personally responsible.

Snoopster

Perhaps the reason this trial is fast tracked is the courts know were it is heading and want to get it there. If USAPA loses I am sure they willl appeal. If Leonidas loses an appeal may come or perhaps AWAPPA will sue on different grounds, that is in the background.

Is USAPA rerunning the election or holding a runoff between Cleary-Schoppaul. Love "the goat gets my vote" campaign slogan.

The APA was fined 45 million. In the end they did not pay directly because they owed it to the company. They worked it out in contract negotiations( concessions?) The judge did not come up with some groundbreaking new ruling in that case. USAPA and therefore its members can be held liable for damages. But on a similar tack, name one case were a party to an arbitration simply ignored the results and implemented their own solution overuling the findings of the arbitrator.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

For all the rhetoric, discussion, vitriol, etc. on this website, the one thing I just cannot comprehend is the seeming easy ability of some to completely belittle a fellow professional pilot (after all this comes to a resolution, isn't that what we are still supposed to be?) that has no control over what is happening to his career right now.

To make a comment like this about the "poor 190 F/O" just to make an argument point on a website with the only exposure being his keyboard possibly exploding is beyond what should be the threshold of a professional pilot.

I have told my reps and the NC that I would be willing to give up some contract gains for folks in my seniority (500) and give it to increase the abomination of a pay scale for the 190 F/O's. At some point in the, hopefully near, future this seniority debacle will come to a resolution in one way or another. Where do we go then???

Usapa brought up the 190 fo plight in one of its own recent updates, the fellow eating at his folks house was but one example. Go ahead and play righteous, but many of usapa's actions as of its inception are beyond the threshold of what a professional pilot is. The seniority issue has already been resolved, but for the antics of a larger group.

Usapa is screwing us all, you, me, and the 190 fos most of all.

 

[nic4us]

I have told my reps and the NC that I would be willing to give up some contract gains for folks in my seniority (500) and give it to increase the abomination of a pay scale for the 190 F/O's. At some point in the, hopefully near, future this seniority debacle will come to a resolution in one way or another. Where do we go then???

Knowing there are individuals who are not simply self-serving, leads me to believe we can go somewhere that benefits us all.

If you truely believe the West "won" in the Nicolau arbitration, we should step back and ask how and why? The West position from the begining was "save Dave". Look out for our most junior pilot, and the rest will fall into place. I think if we follow this same strategy in future negotiations, be it with the company or amonst ourselves, the benefits will fall into place for all of us ( and all of US ).

 

[cleardirect]

HP-FA can certainly give a better explanation, but my understanding is that an appeal doesn't get heard just because one side or the other doesn't like the lower courts decision. There must be some evidence to support a claim that the lower court judge misapplied the law before the Appeals Court will hear the appeal.

Jim

And there you have all of the crazy gyrations from usapa. All of the endless delay, challenges to every issue. The emergency appeal to the ninth. 33 motions in limine. The silly waste of $25,000 -$30,000 trying to depose the cactus 18.

All of these things have but one purpose. Setting up some manufactured reason for an appeal.

Now you must ask yourself. If usapa thinks that they have the righteous position and they are going to win.

PHL update
The DFR suit against USAPA, commonly called the Addington case, is scheduled for trial at the end of April. While all of us are confident that there will be no finding of any wrongdoing on the part of the Union,

Then why all of the effort to set up an appeal. But this case was never suppose to even see a court room. Usapa was told by their attorney that it had “no meritâ€￾ and would be dismissed. Then Seham told the BPR that it would be late fall before it saw the court room.

Now Seham is telling the BPR that it is an automatic appeal if/when he loses. Could it be time to start to question the legal advice from NY.

Usapa filed an appeal in the fourth circuit because they thought the judge misapplied the law. We will see who is right about that. Three judges will look at that case soon and decide. Was it a federal judge that was correct, or a NY lawyer with a very poor track record of losing every case he has ever worked.

 

[Metroyet]

But your classic: "exposure to damages for all east pilots." Ridiculous. Cite one case in labor history where members/non-members were ever forced to pay damages, Metro. Your going to force East non-members to pay personal damages? Absurd. Even members cant be held personally responsible. In the words of Al Gore: "no controlling legal authority." Worst case, USAPA just goes away. Isnt that what you want anyway? USAPA goes away, the company can do whatever it wants. Snoopster

Well, I seem to remember the APA getting slammed for 50+ million dollars for their illegal sick out circa 1997. I know my buddy was holding an assessment bill for close to 9 grand. I also know that the whole thing got negotiated away but certainly the APA lost something for it.

No. I do not necessarily want USAPA to go away. In house unions can be very effective. What I want to go away is the thuggish brute force element that charges blindly forward with all the mental acuity of Lenny from "of mice and men". You know damn well what USAPA was formed to accomplish. I guess you guys can play stupid with people who have a cursory understanding of the history here but it's pointless to try and convince the West supporting audience. Also, we ALL know who packed up thier gear and headed home in a tizzy when the Nic. didn't go their way. We all know who delayed negotiations while they formed a fake union and promised the illegal and impossible. Sure. I'm sure the company is dragging it's feet. That's what crappy companies do. USAPA, was so arrogant and bullish it thought it could simply hire a "professional" negotiator and the company would simply cower to the unions demands. The delay in getting a new contract can be laid squarely at the feet of the USAPA voting, NIC hating, ALPA "we demand you fix it" angry FO club.

I would argue that the company is doing whatever it wants now as USAPA effectiveness as a Union was Dead on Arrival. You guys were warned otherwise but the thuggish arrogant fools that run this clownshow of a union thought they could simply strong arm who ever they want all the while hiding like cowards behind the NMB. Didn't work.

Two weeks and counting.

 

[banshee74]

Usapa brought up the 190 fo plight in one of its own recent updates, the fellow eating at his folks house was but one example. Go ahead and play righteous, but many of usapa's actions as of its inception are beyond the threshold of what a professional pilot is. The seniority issue has already been resolved, but for the antics of a larger group.

Usapa is screwing us all, you, me, and the 190 fos most of all.

Looking for professional behavior is not "playing righteous". I don't want to see any of our pilot group harmed, east or west. Maybe we have a different common enemy?

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

Looking for professional behavior is not "playing righteous". I don't want to see any of our pilot group harmed, east or west. Maybe we have a different common enemy?

I don't want to see any of our guys harmed either, east or west, but that is exactly what this historic new union is doing. Harming all of us, east and west. I'm sure you are sincere in your comments to the NC, you should be applauded for that. I apologize for the righteous comment, probably a poor choice of words on my part in your particular case.

I think usapa is doing no favors for any of us, it is a sham of a union in its current form. You and I both, along with all the others are being taken for a ride.

 

[tazz]

Tazz, admit it, applying at AAA was never in the cards for you anyway. We didnt hire for 10 years, 1989 till Nov 1998.

Whatever the fees, West pilots will end up paying 1/3 of them, whether members or not. Snooper

Read my posts. I applied to Delta and AWA for all the reasons given. Wouldn't consider AAA, whether they were hiring or not.

Regarding AWA pilots paying 1/3 of the legal costs, think again. Objector/Challengers pay only costs germane to contract administration/negotiation. Assesments of this nature are not applicable. Lots and lots of objectors over here......

 

[EastUS]

Read my posts. I applied to Delta and AWA for all the reasons given. Wouldn't consider AAA, whether they were hiring or not.

Overall then; Your and the west's current interest in obtaining east flying is most puzzling indeed....

As for Delta's rejection, and from your earlier stated reasons = One must assume it was the only other major option to AWA that provided any warm weather bases? Uh Huh....I see then. BS's just plain BS, regardless of how it's presented.

Regardless of our extreme differences: I respect the west's safety record and would have no difficulty putting those I know on your planes. I believe the west group, as a whole, to be quite competent at airline flying, but I find all the "AWA Uber Alles" utter horse-hockey that's been presented here, over time, to be completely ridiculous...and seemingly, just futile attempts at further "justifying" some imagined personal "value" that'd naturally go hand in hand with seeking inflated "seniority" over any others.