US Pilots Labor Thread 4/7 to 4/14- ALL US Pilots Labor Issues Here

[EastUS]

Are we going to drop the AWA was a place for pilots who couldn't go anywhere else BS too?

Certainly...even just moments after one of your very loudest voices personally admitted that to be pretty much the true case.
I've no doubt whatsoever that you all turned down every major in favor of AWA. Happy now?

 

[luvn737s]

I would think that anyone with experience in the airline industry (those for whom their current airline is not the only airline for whom they have ever worked) would know that you go with the first airline that hires you and then you may choose to move on after that. For many, the comraderie of their fellow pilots combined with the vagaries of the economy resulted in the search for greener pastures to be a somewhat lower priority. Also the experienced among us will testify that there are innumerable events large and small that go into a person getting a job offer at a particular airline. And even after all those details line up, it's still a crap shoot. The day you get hired at an airline, you could be the luckiest SOB on the planet. When you pack your things in a box 20 years later with 20 more to go till retirement, you're the unluckiest. It in no way reflects on your personal worth.

There is no manifest destiny in this business.

 

[Furlough Fodder]

Certainly...even just moments after one of your very loudest voices personally admitted that to be pretty much the true case.
I've no doubt whatsoever that you all turned down every major in favor of AWA. Happy now?

You still just don't get it. Oh well. Have a nice day anyway.

 

[EastUS]

The day you get hired at an airline, you could be the luckiest SOB on the planet. When you pack your things in a box 20 years later with 20 more to go till retirement, you're the unluckiest. It in no way reflects on your personal worth.

There is no manifest destiny in this business.

Unless of course, one's from the west group here,....in which case "expectations" and "relativity" clearly rule?..and the "personal worth" of any/all east people's obviously zero?........

FurloughFodder: "You still just don't get it. Oh well. Have a nice day anyway." Likewise to you on the nice day

 

[tazz]

Certainly...even just moments after one of your very loudest voices personally admitted that to be pretty much the true case.
I've no doubt whatsoever that you all turned down every major in favor of AWA. Happy now?

If you are referring to me I think that I have made it quite clear that I made choices and didn't just sandblast applications to any legacy carrier there is/was. Lifestyle is everything. I am, however finished urinating into the wind here.

 

[Metroyet]

Certainly...even just moments after one of your very loudest voices personally admitted that to be pretty much the true case.
I've no doubt whatsoever that you all turned down every major in favor of AWA. Happy now?

Hmm, of the over 1000 + Pilots hired in the 99 boom, (all subsequently furloughed plus another 900 for good measure) how many actually accepted recall? A couple of hundred? Not really a ringing endorsement of how "major" your airline is. Most others I guess were good enough to get away from that endless quagmire and as such actually had a choice.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Unless of course, one's from the west group here,....in which case "expectations" and "relativity" clearly rule?..and the "personal worth" of any/all east people's obviously zero?........

Obviously zero? That would put all the East people below the all West people, something that didn't happen. The top 517 (less attrition since the Nic list came out) are ahead of all West pilots - hardly zero worth. Between the top and bottom West pilots there are roughly twice as many East pilots as West - hardly zero worth.

Nic gave the East pilots (aside from some of the 517) what their years had earned at the time of the merger, just as he did the West. Yet that's not good enough for the East DOH fanatics - they want what they had earned plus what many of the West pilots had earned. I guess belittling and demeaning the West pilots is how some East pilots convince themselves that taking away what the West folks had earned is "fair".

Jim

 

[jetjok1]

Eastus, you really are a piece of work. First of all I gave a direct answer with some extremely valid reasons for being at AWA. Just how do you define squirming? Secondly, like it or not, AWA was a major airline, growing and profitable while your "legacy" carrier was in its death throes.

Tazz,
I was hired by AWA in 84'. After completing ground school, 4 "legacy" carriers came calling. I had 2 job offers. I took the job at AAA because, at the time, AWA's pay was terrible, pilots were multi-tasking (ala People's Express), even upgrades, occasionally, were done out of seniority. I hired on with AAA over NWA for a lot of reasons, some of which, were right seat availability, pay light years ahead, a company making money hand over fist ( hardly in it's death throes), upgraded in 4.5 years. defined benefit plan, and on and on...So, did I make the right decision or did you? The answer is- we both made the best decision based on what we thought appropiate at the time. Your reasons are as valid as mine. I've been fortunate to have worked in this industry for a long as I have. It's a crap shoot as we all know and timing is everything. My philosophy has been to show up to work and not have a chain and lock on the door. Could I have been happy at AWA= probably. I don't regret any decision I've made because I've managed to stay employed. I have good friends on both sides and I only hope we can get this thing together before I check out of here.

 

[traderjake]

Jim, now you've done it, confused him with facts. Here comes a 500 word non response interlaced with smiley faces.

 

[NiceLandingCaptain]

Tazz,
I was hired by AWA in 84'. After completing ground school, 4 "legacy" carriers came calling. I had 2 job offers. I took the job at AAA because, at the time, AWA's pay was terrible, pilots were multi-tasking (ala People's Express), even upgrades, occasionally, were done out of seniority. I hired on with AAA over NWA for a lot of reasons, some of which, were right seat availability, pay light years ahead, a company making money hand over fist ( hardly in it's death throes), upgraded in 4.5 years. defined benefit plan, and on and on...So, did I make the right decision or did you? The answer is- we both made the best decision based on what we thought appropiate at the time. Your reasons are as valid as mine. I've been fortunate to have worked in this industry for a long as I have. It's a crap shoot as we all know and timing is everything. My philosophy has been to show up to work and not have a chain and lock on the door. Could I have been happy at AWA= probably. I don't regret any decision I've made because I've managed to stay employed. I have good friends on both sides and I only hope we can get this thing together before I check out of here.

jetjok -

This issue of allegedly making bad career choices choices was NOT an issue at all until one of "your own" began to badmouth any pilot who took a job with AWA. In fact this individual was intimating that an AWA pilot could not likely get a job anywhere else. This theory is complete and utter nonsense, and merely an attempt at justifying his DOH stance and bolstering his own self-esteem.

All of us made decisions based on the information we had AT THAT TIME. Some pilots' decisions were very fortuitous, others' seemed to be completely snake-bit. I feel lucky in that I have only 5 differently styled uniforms hanging in my closet. I know of others who have twice that number hanging in theirs.

This business is a true career crap shoot. And it has been ever since deregulation.

Most of us are grown up enough to realize this fact of airline life and would not even consider belittling another simply because, at present, he happens to be jerking gear at upstart, Acme Express Airlines.

By the way - those AWA vintage '83 and '84 folks are doing rather well around here at present.

 

[Metroyet]

Tazz,
I was hired by AWA in 84'. After completing ground school, 4 "legacy" carriers came calling. I had 2 job offers. I took the job at AAA because, at the time, AWA's pay was terrible, pilots were multi-tasking (ala People's Express), even upgrades, occasionally, were done out of seniority. I hired on with AAA over NWA for a lot of reasons, some of which, were right seat availability, pay light years ahead, a company making money hand over fist ( hardly in it's death throes), upgraded in 4.5 years. defined benefit plan, and on and on...So, did I make the right decision or did you? The answer is- we both made the best decision based on what we thought appropiate at the time. Your reasons are as valid as mine. I've been fortunate to have worked in this industry for a long as I have. It's a crap shoot as we all know and timing is everything. My philosophy has been to show up to work and not have a chain and lock on the door. Could I have been happy at AWA= probably. I don't regret any decision I've made because I've managed to stay employed. I have good friends on both sides and I only hope we can get this thing together before I check out of here.

Agreed 100%

Well said.

 

[Megasnoop]

Good question. Although I am from the east coast I did not even apply to US Airways for several reasons.
I applied at AWA, felt right at home with very happy and upbeat people at an airline that was growing 15% per year and a 4 year upgrade to look forward to. This was a fabulous place to work until our management, in its ultimate wisdom, chose to acquire the Titanic.

Tazz, admit it, applying at AAA was never in the cards for you anyway. We didnt hire for 10 years, 1989 till Nov 1998. You applied at AWA in 1997. Glad you enjoyed AWA while it lasted. I enjoyed Pied while it lasted too. AWA was going the same way as AAA, down the tubes until this merger. Parker, who had to tell the truth or be "Oxley-Sarbainsed," said so in company documents.

This two-sided nightmare will unfold over the next few months in court/appal, not on this board.
However it ends, Ill live with it. I hope you can. Think its long past the time to cut out the gottchas and insults and constant repeating the same worn-out barbs/spin.

I'm busy packing for my cruise but I wanted to jump in and say that I don't think anyone was inferring that Megasnoop was or had been flaming me. I think that comment was in conjunction with someone else.

To be honest and fair, Mega, EastUS and a few others, despite being obviously pro-USAPA, have had no problems exchanging views with me in civil and respectful exchanges. As most of you have seen I try to stay out of discussions that are not related to actual legal discussions or having to do with legal matters. In other words I try to stay out of what I consider to be purely emotional discussions. They don't really interest me. The legal stuff still does.

Anyway, I am digressing. Senor Snoop and I don't have any outstanding issues that I am aware of so the post probably wasn't directed at him.

Thanks, hp. I enjoy read your legal opinions and research. Dont always agree with you, but I doubt if I ever flamed you. You never flamed me. The only "issues" we might have are in Prechilils imagination. She tends to use a scatter-gun to blast here way thru the boards. Curious how she was off the board from November til yesterday, roughly same time Susie started her no-dues campaign til her arbitration was over.

On how much were paying for attorneys fees. Any comment gets spun. If Id said $5M, Id hear back were getting ripped off. If I said $500K, Id hear you get what you pay for, like Metro. He is SO funny.

You get what you pay for.

That said however, I'm willing to bet the costs are far Far FAR greater than what you've been told.

Whatever the fees, West pilots will end up paying 1/3 of them, whether members or not. Snooper

 

[Megasnoop]

Well we are getting closer to that $1.9 mil that I said. Don't forget the seven lawyers you have working on the Empire case. Plus all of the other "advice" that Seham spews. Like the very smart advice to deny the west pilot a chance to run in the election. What was the total cost on that sound legal advice?

Well, more of the same. 7 lawyers working on the Empire case? That would be about 1 lawyer for every 2 listed Empire plaintiff. No doubt the Empire plaintiffs are shelling out a lot of money. If they want to keep it up, more $power to them. On the election, USAPA has proved the system works and is fair. The NMB never got involved since they require local remedies to be exhausted first. Schoppaul appealed to the USAPA appeals board and there will be a new election. Im sure Schoppaul will be a shoe-in winner. We havent forgotten his barnyard animal references and 14-part U-Tube classic. I dont see any downside to a new election other than the cost, which West pilots will pay 1/3 the bill and only get 1/20th the vote.

$100,000 and the BPR wanted to settle for less then $700. Now that is a fine return on an investment of member dues.

The intent of the RICO was to stop the harassment. It worked. The $700/defendant was a gift. The 17 looked that gift-horse in the mouth and said no. They still have $5000 each at stake, with time running out to counter-sue. But if they want to go that route, fine. They can shell out another $5000 to sue USAPA.

Still a bit above the first estimate of <$500,000. The LM-2 is going to be interesting reading. Any guesses, before or after the verdict? I say after.

Who cares? The final accounting wont come out until Sep 2010, if all the appeals are over by then. Thanks for kicking in 1/3. Thats a good thing.

1/3 paying your bills? How many members are in the west? 130- 140. Not quite the 1/3 you hope for. Add in the Susie arbitration possibility. Some damages maybe. No I think that legal bill will fall completly onto the east. Along with a nice seperate assesment for your pension. Time to find that check book. The bills are coming due.

It doesnt make any difference how many west members there are. DFR/Empire/RICO bills will be paid out of union dues/agency fees. Youll pay 1/3. "Some damages maybe?" Dream on. Wheres the loss? Were awaiting arbitration results that should get every original AWA pilot back to work. Tazz gets his CA seat back too. If WE (EAST AND WEST) win, thats a good thing. Isnt it? Or maybe youd rather have the arbitrations lose and keep pilots who got screwed by the company on the streets.

Just to keep the record straight. usapa fired the first shot.the RICO suit was filed the end of May. Not the west

Just for the record, McIlvenna fired the 1st shot while he was still MEC Chairman, pledging the destruction of USAPA before it was elected. The Cactus 18 picked up on his call to arms. AWAPPA paid the legal fees of the AWAPPA leadership, but left the 18 high and dry. West leadership you can count on. Snooper-doo

 

[Metroyet]

Whatever the fees, West pilots will end up paying 1/3 of them, whether members or not. Snooper

MS,

If all the West paid was 1/3rd I'd be elated. The fact is, West pilots and their families have, on average, had to pay $1500.00 each in legal fees just to fight off their new fake "union" and nobody on this side of the country is delusional enough to believe that the fight will end without appeal...meaning the checkbooks are standing by to keep funding the good fight. If it makes you feel better to hide behind sec. 29 so be it. I see the use of Sec. 29 to forcibly extract payment as nothing more than a Cowardice form of Extortion. If USAPA thinks they deserve the funds of their hard working constituents, then perhaps they should be willing to prove that they are worth something beyond the dismissive wave of the hand and a quick laugh as evidenced by their one year anniversary and the indisputable fact that absolutely NOTHING has been gained by their presence...despite such lofty campaign promises to the contrary.

Go ahead, try and make the case that the East is giving a "free ride" to the west non-payers and that it "isn't right". I will however direct your attention to the FACT that USAPAs first election was so badly flawed and biased as to be ruled Illegal. Why? Because of the improper exclusion of a West Pilot. Imagine that? Exactly what does the West get for their money? Good question.

If you think the ultimate win for you is to force some west guys into paying a couple of hundred dollars to keep their jobs because the angry FO club is so blindly convinced that they can torture and twist some obscure rule into being something it was never intended to be, and then use it like a weapon, then congratulations. I still see it as a weak, passive form of Cowardice and the Whole East "BPR" is plainly tattooed with it...the permanent mark of a Coward.

See You in Court.

 

[Metroyet]

Just for the record, McIlvenna fired the 1st shot while he was still MEC Chairman, pledging the destruction of USAPA

A promise is a promise...