US Pilots' Labor Thread 4/28-5/5--NO PERSONAL REMARKS

[traderjake]

And that first payment of $35 million will do just fine covering some of the damages awarded as a result of this trial - should the west prevail of course.

Trying to steal jobs from West Captains is not enough for the guys, now they think they can steal money from East pilots.

 

[EastUS]

.....now they think they can steal money from East pilots.

While it's notable that all of your postings argue adamantly in favor of giving away east seniority to the west as quickly as is humanly possible....This last part actually comes as any honest surprise to you trader? :blink:
What were you expecting? = Gratitude?

 

[cleardirect]

Couple of interesting tidbits from the trial so far. West attorney Ms Flood lost 4 out of 6 Brengle objections today. West Ms Brown didn’t fare much better. It’s clear how Brengle will be arguing. Snoopo

I really hope that this is not a repeat of the Nicolau situation. During the hearings the west was getting the transcripts. The east had a “note takerâ€￾ The note taker put his spin and bias on the reporting. So the east was getting a slanted view of the proceedings.

I believe this is one of the reasons that the east was so upset. Their expectations had been raised by limited reporting. USAPA tried to fix that by releasing the transcripts but as usual stumbled.

The number of objections won or lost is not the way to score. If that is the case Brengle is way behind yesterday. He lost about 40 on evidence admission. But no big deal.

The more concerning point for the east lawyer should have been when the judge slapped him for not following the court rules. AGAIN! A witness was testifying, Brengle did the cross, Stevens did the re direct that is suppose to be it. Brengle stood up to take another turn. The judge looked up said what are you doing? Brengle said I have another question. NO! You should have asked that in your cross. Sit down you know that rules. We then took a break for lunch. The last thing the jury saw before lunch.

The other side’s attorney breaking the rules.

Couple of interesting tidbits from the trial so far. West attorney Ms Flood lost 4 out of 6 Brengle objections today. West Ms Brown didnt fare much better. Its clear how Brengle will be arguing. snoopo

 

[luvn737s]

How many times had Sully or Skiles ditched an airliner prior to this event? I'd say we are all about as experienced as the next regarding this event. Lotta luck boys. No two ways about it.

What about my outlook? Why should I consider something else?

Yes. Whatever euphamism that is synonymous for "luck" had far more to do with the successful outcome of this event than experience. Skill and experience may have driven the decision not to attempt a return to LGA (a decision I feel is key to the success), but once it hit the water Sully was just another passenger.

By making pilots who survive into heroes, you unfairly tarnish the expertise of those who are handed an unflyable airplane and do not survive. The Alaska MD-80 off LAX is a perfect example.

 

[GuntherA320]

Yes. Whatever euphamism that is synonymous for "luck" had far more to do with the successful outcome of this event than experience. Skill and experience may have driven the decision not to attempt a return to LGA (a decision I feel is key to the success), but once it hit the water Sully was just another passenger.

By making pilots who survive into heroes, you unfairly tarnish the expertise of those who are handed an unflyable airplane and do not survive. The Alaska MD-80 off LAX is a perfect example.

Have you ever read the NTSB report from that accident????? Please tell me you're not using that as an example of an unflyable airplane. The crew continued flight with a jammed stabilizer for 2 hours and 20 minutes after they knew they had a problem. They hand flew it to altitude even thought it required significant control column forces to do so. After an hour and a half of hand flying they put the auto pilot back on!!! Pull out your QRH for Jammed Control Column and see what it says. Would you continue flight with a flight control problem??? While it is true that Maintenance was the major cause of this accident, the crew exacerbated the problem by continuing to fly an aircraft that had a stabilizer jammed for 2 hours and 20 minutes. Please do a little homework before putting out "perfect examples".

http://www.ntsb.gov/events/2000/Aka261/AKA..._transcript.pdf (Page 6 is a good place to start)

Valuejet 592 or American 191 would have been much better examples.

 

[EastUS]

Whatever euphamism that is synonymous for "luck" had far more to do with the successful outcome of this event than experience. Skill and experience may have driven the decision.....

Have you ever read the NTSB report from that accident????? Please tell me you're not using that as an example of an unflyable airplane.

He was. This is exemplary of just where all the "skill and experience" doesn't matter!" horse-hockey from the west falls apart. They simply can NOT afford to admit that anything but "luck" drives events, and that "skill and experience" are meaningless...Otherwise? They'd have to admit their entire position's the complete BS that it actually is.

If "skill and experince" are worthless...well..heck!..I guess they're right out west, and..we might as well put the grade school children in as captains immediately. I mean actually now school children...since it's all just a matter of luck anyway. :blink:

This just gets more absurd each time they open their mouths to speak = "Skill and experience may have driven the decision..." "may" have? Sigh..okay. Even so..perhaps it's better just to trust to luck/flip a coin/etc

 

[oldiebutgoody]

I thought that by now someone would have posted how many objections were sustained or overruled, as if that matters any, for the day.

 

[hp_fa]

I'll post more in a bit but the headliner at trial was Sully, not necessarily for what he said but by name recognition.

 

[luvn737s]

He was. This is exemplary of just where all the "skill and experience" doesn't matter!" horse-hockey from the west falls apart. They simply can NOT afford to admit that anything but "luck" drives events, and that "skill and experience" are meaningless...Otherwise? They'd have to admit their entire position's the complete BS that it actually is.

If "skill and experince" are worthless...well..heck!..I guess they're right out west, and..we might as well put the grade school children in as captains immediately. I mean actually now school children...since it's all just a matter of luck anyway. :blink:

This just gets more absurd each time they open their mouths to speak = "Skill and experience may have driven the decision..." "may" have? Sigh..okay. Even so..perhaps it's better just to trust to luck/flip a coin/etc

Your ignorance is showing!

By over-generalizing the point to absurdity, you undermine your own argument. I hope others are paying you a royalty everytime they do it.

I have serious doubts that the AK crew would continue to fly their airplane if they knew that the tail was about to come halfway off. It is a perfect example (as is the Valuejet, not so much the AA191) as they continued to fight an unflyable aircraft and chose not to try to do it over a major city.

Yep EastUS it was luck (if you want to call it that). There were too many possible variables that were out of Sully's control to make it anything else. Give the man his due credit, but at least try to feign a semblance of honesty.

Don't make yourself into a characature. I don't agree with you, but I still think you're better than that.

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Your ignorance is showing!

By over-generalizing the point to absurdity, you undermine your own argument. I hope others are paying you a royalty everytime they do it.

I have serious doubts that the AK crew would continue to fly their airplane if they knew that the tail was about to come halfway off. It is a perfect example (as is the Valuejet, not so much the AA191) as they continued to fight an unflyable aircraft and chose not to try to do it over a major city.

Yep EastUS it was luck (if you want to call it that). There were too many possible variables that were out of Sully's control to make it anything else. Give the man his due credit, but at least try to feign a semblance of honesty.

Don't make yourself into a characature. I don't agree with you, but I still think you're better than that.

Sorry. It takes more than just dying in a horrible accident to make someone a hero. It's sad when it happens, but it doesn't necessarily meet the criteria. It's also not a requirement. In fact, there are probably a lot more surviving "unsung" heros than dead ones.

 

[EastUS]

Your ignorance is showing!

By over-generalizing the point to absurdity,....

Standard BS. You're clearly not even the least bit well informed on the "perfect example" tragic crash you posted.

Nothing any out west have posted, in their absurdly feeble attempts to disparage the value of experience, makes any actual sense whatsoever.

Personally? I don't much believe that trusting to luck's much of game plan to have while flying. A Hand from Above is always appreciated, but..I certainly don't feel it's appropriate to presume upon The Allmighty. The sense I'm getting from west posters here is that whatever level of training and experience they currently have is "obviously" sufficient for any and all events...and (shrugs shoulders)..well..Heck!..if it isn't, then it didn't matter anyway..and we should all just trust to fortune. You've even had a poster produce the completely hilarious notion that "FAA required training" "for captains" was essentially some "big deal"...as opposed to being the truly rudimentary evaluation that it really is. This is a business within which one should always be learning....period.

Sorry, but I'm just not much impressed by what I'm hearing from your section here, and I couldn't care less what you think of that.

Keep blindly jabbing away at the obvious worth of actual experience in human endeavor if it best suits your needs...after all...who knows?...you might get "lucky".

 

[EastUS]

I'll post more in a bit but the headliner at trial was Sully, not necessarily for what he said but by name recognition.

No one can yet know what the jury will ultimately decide, but I'd think it a pretty compelling presentation. Some extracts from it with a link from one article follow:

"He was on the stand for less than a half-hour and immediately left the courtroom, but he packed a punch with his strong criticism of a seniority list issued by an arbitrator two years ago. Seniority is paramount for pilots as it dictates pay, work schedules, promotions, vacations and job security."

"I was shocked by its one-sidedness," Sullenberger said of the list"


"Sullenberger said "it simply wasn't right" that an America West pilot with just a few months seniority at the airline when the merger was announced would be ranked above former US Airways pilots with years of experience at the time of the merger.

The union noted in its opening statement that Hudson co-pilot Skiles, who has 19 years with US Airways, ranks below an America West pilot with less than seven years' seniority on the arbitrated seniority list.

Sullenberger said he expressed his concerns about the list to the head of the Air Line Pilots Association, the union that represented America West and US Airways at the time of the merger, in a meeting in Charlotte, N.C., where he is based.

He said a flawed merger policy by that union led to the impasse."

http://www.azcentral.com/business/articles...estand0502.html

 

[Be Careful What You Wish For.]

What fighting? They won.

 

[UtterlyUdder]

Oh please, give me a break. PIE management and the robber barron railroad sold you down the river. you could have bought your own airline and you didn't.

Why is it that the South is still "fighting" the war?

You are quite right about that merger. Allegheny never really merged with Mohawk....Lake Central was barely noticed. :blink: The Allegheny people called the PIT people "rustheads" and the PIE people the "billy bobs" and the PSA pilots the "surfers". :unsure: This airline is made up of groups that have never really "merged". It has always been Allegheny uber alles. That's because WE were here FIRST!

Next? :down:

 

[Be Careful What You Wish For.]

This airline is made up of groups that have never really "merged". It has always been Allegheny uber alles. That's because WE were here FIRST!

So what is actually left of the original AAA?