US Pilots labor thread 4/17-

[cleardirect]

You guys still aren't getting it. We are not tossing and turning at night over this. In the end we have a vote. This vote will mean one thing only.....are there enough good things in a TA that will offset the NIC. Now, to a F/O what would it take in terms of compensation to vote yes, but never check out as captain. We don't have to have a side debate, we all know that as soon as the ink is dry PHX will be downsized and there will be hundreds of East F/O's would have checked out as Capt. who now will not when the migration East take place. It matter not that you don't WANT to do it, you will go East if it means keeping your job or getting a left seat. This is NOT true if the vast majority of you....say 98% do not come East to fly the 767/330 or even to check out as a narrow body Capt. So how many of you will commute to PHL/CLT to fly Capt. with a 60-80K pay raise. A bunch I'll bet. How many of you will come East to stay employed...answer?... all of you will. You are right a vote will tell the story....but I would bet serious money that ANY TA gets a yes vote out West. Not even close out East. And besides, how long do you think it will take to even get a TA to vote on. What do you think Parker will put on the table now that we are a stand alone co and he stresses each and every day how costs must be lowered and kept low. You think Clearly trashing the Kirby is an attemp to keep nic out. NEWS FLASH....any TA without a MIN fleet is DOA. There ain't one with KIRBY. What would this place look like both East and West w/o a min fleet. I'll tell you, most of you Westies would not even be here to read this....it's called longevity as you like to point out.

Get comfortable.

VNIIMN
NPJB

P.S Spoke to a buddy of mine the other day....767 Capt on reserve, made about 140K at U, plus PBGC 38K, plus military, 19K. side lanscaping business 49K.
TOTAL 246K. Think throwing another 20K at him for 4 more years makes a difference. Told me he wasn't voting no he was voting Hell NO. Nuff said.

Once again we are back to the urban myth. “east pilots will never checkout as captain” Give us hard data. How many east F/O’s will never check because of the Nicolau. By choice. Now give us the number of F/O’s that would have never checked out without the merger. (I will help you out with that answer, NONE.)

Give us the hard data the PHX will shrink as soon as the ink is dry on a deal.

Pure speculation with no facts.

One last thing. Good for your 767 capt buddy. At least he has his. Good for him that he is secure enough and comfortable enough that he can screw the junior guys making $40.00 flying the 190. So much for usapa and you east pilots watching out for all of the pilots. I think that was one of the complains about ALPA, they only cared about the senior guys. Glad to see that attitude is alive and well out east.

I am pretty sure those 190 guys would love to have just the landscaping income. Sounds pretty selfish as usual.

 

[TheBadCat1313]

Once again we are back to the urban myth. “east pilots will never checkout as captain” Give us hard data. How many east F/O’s will never check because of the Nicolau. By choice. Now give us the number of F/O’s that would have never checked out without the merger. (I will help you out with that answer, NONE.)

Give us the hard data the PHX will shrink as soon as the ink is dry on a deal.

Pure speculation with no facts.

One last thing. Good for your 767 capt buddy. At least he has his. Good for him that he is secure enough and comfortable enough that he can screw the junior guys making $40.00 flying the 190. So much for usapa and you east pilots watching out for all of the pilots. I think that was one of the complains about ALPA, they only cared about the senior guys. Glad to see that attitude is alive and well out east.

I am pretty sure those 190 guys would love to have just the landscaping income. Sounds pretty selfish as usual.

Agreed. And for every guy like this, there's 10 who don't have a side business or military retirement. And the potential raise for a guy like this is more like $35,000. So for someone with seven years left, we're talking about $245,000 in additional career earnings. Oh, yeah, this guy WILL vote for it. The real question is will he get the opportunity?

 

[Piedmont1984]

Once again we are back to the urban myth. “east pilots will never checkout as captain” Give us hard data. How many east F/O’s will never check because of the Nicolau. By choice. Now give us the number of F/O’s that would have never checked out without the merger. (I will help you out with that answer, NONE.)


I am pretty sure those 190 guys would love to have just the landscaping income. Sounds pretty selfish as usual.

Actually, if the number of F/O's that would have never checked out without the merger is none - then they all would have checked out But I know what you meant.

You are also making conclusive assertions based on assumption and conjecture. We did not liquidate/fold/close shop etc. That is a fact. Absent the merger with AWA, no one knows with absolute assurance what would have happened in the summer of 2005 and all thoughts in this regard are conjecture.

Granted, at that particular moment in time we were in a real pickle. But our franchise had considerable value and this was recognized by a number of parties who made the merger happen. To write off a legacy airline based on an accountant's snapshot is inaccurate and unfair.

Unfortunately for the east pilots, Nicolau did exactly that and took the short term accountant's view in making his decision, which he wrapped in the amorphous ALPA concept (slogan) "career expectations".

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

Nicolau used much more than a snapshot, and an accounts short term view as you suggest. A reading of the award, and the thousands of pages of transcripts would show that. What you just posted is east boilerplate. Just saying so, doesn't make it so.

 

[Edward]

Folks this is a warning to everyone who posts here. Racist remarks & comments will NOT be tolerated on this board. I just deleted one post & gave out a long suspension.

 

[OTTER574]

Dude why would I be in the cornfied when I just state the obvious. This reminds me of the TV show where a guy faked his
own death and then won the lottery....will he find a way to cash in??...stay tuned next week as the saga continues!!

VNIIMN
NPJB

http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/legacy/us_airways.html

http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/major-national-lcc/jetblue.html

enjoy your payrates..some know but somehow you don't.

12 year captain JB E190=$143 pfh

16 year captain USairwaysE190=$95 pfh

you do the math. never was for the e190's starting a B scale at this airline...somehow you think this is cool!

 

[GuntherA320]

Give us the hard data the PHX will shrink as soon as the ink is dry on a deal.

Pure speculation with no facts.

One last thing. Good for your 767 capt buddy. At least he has his. Good for him that he is secure enough and comfortable enough that he can screw the junior guys making $40.00 flying the 190. So much for usapa and you east pilots watching out for all of the pilots. I think that was one of the complains about ALPA, they only cared about the senior guys. Glad to see that attitude is alive and well out east.

I am pretty sure those 190 guys would love to have just the landscaping income. Sounds pretty selfish as usual.

Where do I start? You guys wonder why no east pilots post here or even on the Cactus web board. Fact is....we just don't care what you have to say. You can talk till you're blue in the face and it will not change one east pilot's mind. I'm sure you read the other board. It is amusing to see the west pilots fight among themselves. The west has ALMOST 1000 Members in Good Standing (MIG's) and the east has roughly 2800 MIG's. How close are we to a contract? Even your own pilots on the other board acknowledge that we will not move forward until the east pilots decide to move forward. What evidence of that do you see? Yes, yes, yes....LOA 93 forever. Etc..Etc.

The EVP position doesn't matter. The 9th doesn't matter. SCOTUS doesn't matter. Damages trial doesn't matter. I know there are a few here that think damages will be limited to the East pilots. I have news for you....even your own pilots on the other forums acknowledge that damages would be against USAPA....not against a specific group of pilots. Guess what....we are ALL USAPA. The west will pay for 40% of their own damages if that actually occurs. What DOES matter is that there will be a vote for a new contract whenever that arrives. How far away do you think that is? How many pilots do you think there are in the east that will vote for a new contract with the Nic in it?

95% of the pilots on the east realize that Nic is not going away. This has always been about delay/fence with the chance of getting rid of it. The E190 F/O's you speak of, I was one at one time, know that a contract = no job. I rode the jumpseat on one last week. The F/O only had 3 people under him in the entire company. Guess what.....he doesn't want the Nic. He realizes that Nic = unemployment. He would rather have his 50K a year job than no job at all. Ask your furloughs on the west if they would like to have that job. The captain I flew with last week was ex-PSA. He still lives in a west coast city. He commutes on the west every week. I never even brought up the Nic or the west. He DID! To hear him talk about the west you would have thought he was a junior F/O instead of a senior AB captain. He wants no part of the west. He just wants to finish his days here and retire.

It is almost amusing to watch the 10 or so posters on here that celebrate and high five each other every time there is some news announcement about how Judge Wake has upheld something or the 9th has ruled against USAPA. USAPA knows how these things are going to turn out when they file them. These are hurdles being tossed your way to keep you occupied. When you clear one...... there is another one to jump. It is all about the fence. One day, there will be more west pilots left on the property than east and you will finally succeed. We know that day is coming. But guess what.....it won't be tomorrow.....it won't be next week....it won't be next year. And when you clear the next hurdle.....you will find that there will just be another one there for you to jump.

On a final note. This isn't personal......it's business. The east is looking after its own much like the west is looking out for their own. I don't have a thing against a single west pilot. You are fighting for your cause, we are fighting for ours. As to individual people, there are quite a few west pilots that i consider friends. Just because we don't see eye to eye on this doesn't make either one of us bad people. It is an unfortunate situation......but it is what it is.

 

[Piedmont1984]

Nicolau used much more than a snapshot, and an accounts short term view as you suggest. A reading of the award, and the thousands of pages of transcripts would show that. What you just posted is east boilerplate. Just saying so, doesn't make it so.

Nicolau did indeed use a snapshot. Then, he used up volumes of pages to justify it. The flaw in his rationale became obvious in the two years following the merger when the east operation was the engine which propelled the company earnings.

 

[OTTER574]

http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/legacy/us_airways.html

http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/major-national-lcc/jetblue.html

enjoy your payrates..some know but somehow you don't.

12 year captain JB E190=$143 pfh

16 year captain USairwaysE190=$95 pfh

you do the math. never was for the e190's starting a B scale at this airline...somehow you think this is cool!

Way to go usapa...E190 capatains now make more at republic.

http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/major-national-lcc/republic.html

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

Nicolau did indeed use a snapshot. Then, he used up volumes of pages to justify it. The flaw in his rationale became obvious in the two years following the merger when the east operation was the engine which propelled the company earnings.

More east coast boilerplate, prior to the merger what exactly did the east machine propel?

 

[exB717Flyer]

The flaw in his rationale became obvious in the two years following the merger when the east operation was the engine which propelled the company earnings.

You mean that "engine" which went bankrupt twice in the last decade? And there was no "flaw" in Nicolau's rationale because he based it on hard data, not guesses. Circumstances that change after the snapshot date aren't relevant.

 

[HPDriver]

Where do I start? You guys wonder why no east pilots post here or even on the Cactus web board. Fact is....we just don't care what you have to say. You can talk till you're blue in the face and it will not change one east pilot's mind. I'm sure you read the other board. It is amusing to see the west pilots fight among themselves. The west has ALMOST 1000 Members in Good Standing (MIG's) and the east has roughly 2800 MIG's. How close are we to a contract? Even your own pilots on the other board acknowledge that we will not move forward until the east pilots decide to move forward. What evidence of that do you see? Yes, yes, yes....LOA 93 forever. Etc..Etc.

The EVP position doesn't matter. The 9th doesn't matter. SCOTUS doesn't matter. Damages trial doesn't matter. I know there are a few here that think damages will be limited to the East pilots. I have news for you....even your own pilots on the other forums acknowledge that damages would be against USAPA....not against a specific group of pilots. Guess what....we are ALL USAPA. The west will pay for 40% of their own damages if that actually occurs. What DOES matter is that there will be a vote for a new contract whenever that arrives. How far away do you think that is? How many pilots do you think there are in the east that will vote for a new contract with the Nic in it?

95% of the pilots on the east realize that Nic is not going away. This has always been about delay/fence with the chance of getting rid of it. The E190 F/O's you speak of, I was one at one time, know that a contract = no job. I rode the jumpseat on one last week. The F/O only had 3 people under him in the entire company. Guess what.....he doesn't want the Nic. He realizes that Nic = unemployment. He would rather have his 50K a year job than no job at all. Ask your furloughs on the west if they would like to have that job. The captain I flew with last week was ex-PSA. He still lives in a west coast city. He commutes on the west every week. I never even brought up the Nic or the west. He DID! To hear him talk about the west you would have thought he was a junior F/O instead of a senior AB captain. He wants no part of the west. He just wants to finish his days here and retire.

It is almost amusing to watch the 10 or so posters on here that celebrate and high five each other every time there is some news announcement about how Judge Wake has upheld something or the 9th has ruled against USAPA. USAPA knows how these things are going to turn out when they file them. These are hurdles being tossed your way to keep you occupied. When you clear one...... there is another one to jump. It is all about the fence. One day, there will be more west pilots left on the property than east and you will finally succeed. We know that day is coming. But guess what.....it won't be tomorrow.....it won't be next week....it won't be next year. And when you clear the next hurdle.....you will find that there will just be another one there for you to jump.

On a final note. This isn't personal......it's business. The east is looking after its own much like the west is looking out for their own. I don't have a thing against a single west pilot. You are fighting for your cause, we are fighting for ours. As to individual people, there are quite a few west pilots that i consider friends. Just because we don't see eye to eye on this doesn't make either one of us bad people. It is an unfortunate situation......but it is what it is.

Yawn.

And, BTW , what you're doing is not "business", its a crime that you've been convicted of.

 

[OTTER574]

Where do I start? You guys wonder why no east pilots post here or even on the Cactus web board. Fact is....we just don't care what you have to say. You can talk till you're blue in the face and it will not change one east pilot's mind. I'm sure you read the other board. It is amusing to see the west pilots fight among themselves. The west has ALMOST 1000 Members in Good Standing (MIG's) and the east has roughly 2800 MIG's. How close are we to a contract? Even your own pilots on the other board acknowledge that we will not move forward until the east pilots decide to move forward. What evidence of that do you see? Yes, yes, yes....LOA 93 forever. Etc..Etc.

The EVP position doesn't matter. The 9th doesn't matter. SCOTUS doesn't matter. Damages trial doesn't matter. I know there are a few here that think damages will be limited to the East pilots. I have news for you....even your own pilots on the other forums acknowledge that damages would be against USAPA....not against a specific group of pilots. Guess what....we are ALL USAPA. The west will pay for 40% of their own damages if that actually occurs. What DOES matter is that there will be a vote for a new contract whenever that arrives. How far away do you think that is? How many pilots do you think there are in the east that will vote for a new contract with the Nic in it?

95% of the pilots on the east realize that Nic is not going away. This has always been about delay/fence with the chance of getting rid of it. The E190 F/O's you speak of, I was one at one time, know that a contract = no job. I rode the jumpseat on one last week. The F/O only had 3 people under him in the entire company. Guess what.....he doesn't want the Nic. He realizes that Nic = unemployment. He would rather have his 50K a year job than no job at all. Ask your furloughs on the west if they would like to have that job. The captain I flew with last week was ex-PSA. He still lives in a west coast city. He commutes on the west every week. I never even brought up the Nic or the west. He DID! To hear him talk about the west you would have thought he was a junior F/O instead of a senior AB captain. He wants no part of the west. He just wants to finish his days here and retire.

It is almost amusing to watch the 10 or so posters on here that celebrate and high five each other every time there is some news announcement about how Judge Wake has upheld something or the 9th has ruled against USAPA. USAPA knows how these things are going to turn out when they file them. These are hurdles being tossed your way to keep you occupied. When you clear one...... there is another one to jump. It is all about the fence. One day, there will be more west pilots left on the property than east and you will finally succeed. We know that day is coming. But guess what.....it won't be tomorrow.....it won't be next week....it won't be next year. And when you clear the next hurdle.....you will find that there will just be another one there for you to jump.

On a final note. This isn't personal......it's business. The east is looking after its own much like the west is looking out for their own. I don't have a thing against a single west pilot. You are fighting for your cause, we are fighting for ours. As to individual people, there are quite a few west pilots that i consider friends. Just because we don't see eye to eye on this doesn't make either one of us bad people. It is an unfortunate situation......but it is what it is.

business is one thing but when you break federal law its another...hope you get what you deserve and will be coming soon to a federal court room near you.

be sure and pat ted reed on his fat head.

 

[GuntherA320]

Yawn.

And, BTW you're doing is not "business", its a crime that you've been convicted of.

If this were a "crime"....someone would be going to jail. This is a civil suit. Unfortunately for you HP, when the time comes to pay.....you will be paying too.

We are all USAPA or represented by USAPA....whether you like it or not.

The company would tell you in its contract negotiations that it's just business...not personal.....you might feel like they've committed a crime....but it's just business. They are looking after their interests....you are looking after yours...and we are looking after ours. It's that simple.

 

[OTTER574]

If this were a "crime"....someone would be going to jail. This is a civil suit. Unfortunately for you HP, when the time comes to pay.....you will be paying too.

We are all USAPA or represented by USAPA....whether you like it or not.

funny thing is my $5000 will reap rewards...got it!!!!!!