US Pilots Labor Thread 3/4-3/11-READ THE FIRST POST

[Tiger 1050]

I think the Nic is what George had in mind in the absence of anything reasonable from the east side to grab on to. Perhaps if the east had given him something more favorable to east pilots than George himself had in mind, yet not entirely unrealistic, he may have been willing to go there. Instead, we all know what the east gave him, and we all know what George did. Thats my take on going all in. The east gave George no other option than to go with what he had in mind, since they gave him a position so far out of bounds he couldn't do anything with it.

Yeah but it is still some else's fault... ALPA, big bad management teams, terrorists etc. The list goes on and on. Still the reality is we make conscious choices every morning when we wake to continue or change our lives. No matter what we choose the burden of that decision is ours alone. You cannot deny personal responsibility when you are free to choose.

Crappy thing is even if we choose not to decide we still have made a choice! :blink:

 

[EastUS]

You might want to read your own constitution section V:

Only those ratification ballots approved by the Board of Pilot Representatives by a majority vote shall be forwarded to the affected membership for a ratification vote. Each approved ratification ballot must be accompanied by a BPR voting recommendation to “Approveâ€￾ or “Disapproveâ€￾ when distributed to all members in good standing.

The East are not affected by a change in the west contract. Oopsie...

"Oopsie"?? YOU might want to read the part about Membership...as in = relating only to those who are actually members, and think on that just a wee bit....."Down with USAPA!!...I'll NEVER join or EVER, ever pay dues...but...Waaah!!..I can't vote and I'm not being represented to my complete satisfaction!!"... How utterly both "brilliant"..and just plain pathetic. Good luck actually selling that pitiful BS to any jury with an above room temp average IQ, on the happy thought that one such jury will be empaneled. Oh well..we'll all just have to see how it plays out over time. You might win, or your case might get destroyed..Who knows? Completely insane results come forth from courtrooms everyday. Heck!..Even OJay was initially found "Not Guilty" Of course..by that same sort of observation = There's simply no way to predict the outcome at the present time.

 

[Tiger 1050]

"Oopsie"?? YOU might want to read the part about Membership...as in = relating only to those who are actually members, and think on that just a wee bit....."Down with USAPA!!...I'll NEVER join or EVER, ever pay dues...but...Waaah!!..I can't vote and I'm not being represented to my complete satisfaction!!"... How utterly both "brilliant"..and just plain pathetic. Good luck actually selling that pitiful BS to any jury with an above room temp average IQ, on the happy thought that one such jury will be empaneled. Oh well..we'll all just have to see how it plays out over time. You might win..Who knows? Completely insane results come forth from courtrooms everyday. Heck!..Even OJay was initially found "Not Guilty" Of course..by that same sort of observation = There's simply no way to predict the outcome at the present time.

With your point fully understood I still believe USAPA has a responsibility to see to it that those who are affected and are members in good standing vote their opinion on changes to the west CBA. Anything short of that is just more fodder for the DFR. It's in their C&BL's! They at least have to make an attempt! But they did not...

 

[EastUS]

They at least have to make an attempt! But they did not...

I must fairly note even that observation falls back under the shade-rich umbrella of personal opinion, and has yet to be demonstrated to any jury. Frankly; any of us can now merely guess as to the outcome of any current litigation...and most all are far "too close" to the issues to have the least objectivity, certainly, myself included. It'll be over when it's finally over, and only then will anyone "know" anything.

Hope the knee's doing well.

PS: It really goes without saying..but; I certainly hope the current scope/etc arbitrations produce relief to those furloughted/set to be furloughed. I'll go with some cautious, but I believe reasonable optimism there.

 

[electricjet98]

Part one: A good move and a word of encouragement for USAPA!

If someone could post the graphics from the recent update...go for it; I never have taken the time to learn that. I thought the frequent fliers here might enjoy this. Believe me, good management is something we all want!


Business Intelligence Committee Update
March 6, 2009


Double Standard-Part Two
Measure twice, cut once!


We find it appropriate to respond to Management’s recent ad in USA Today touting US Airways' improved on-time performance rankings. The subtitle above refers to an old carpenter's adage about the importance of measuring very carefully before cutting -- echoing a quote from Gordon Bethune, “if you can’t measure it, you can’t manage it.†Managers who do not respond to customer feedback or do not fervently pursue the truth about their company’s performance and rankings relative to their competitors will continually have trouble competing in the marketplace. If the managers of the business are to be successful, they cannot fool themselves about these values and must face them honestly.

If honest feedback is not sought from customers, or if management doesn’t take proper action to correct sub-standard service, the business overall will suffer. As Mr. Bethune likes to say, “you can sell the cheapest pizza, but after someone eats it once, they won’t buy it again.†All the excuses we hear from our top managers at crew news meetings won’t keep the airplanes full in the long run, and rationalizing never paid the bills!

We’re not sure the recent on-time promotions in the crew rooms and in the press, along with the rewards taken in Management bonuses, paints the true picture of our Management’s work. Simply put, just because the weatherman says it’s sunny doesn’t mean that it is (although we all want it to be). In every chart below, US Airways is at or near the bottom of the list. We believe these charts reveal the TRUE measurement of how US Airways Management is doing. Take note of the last chart! SmarterTravel.com surveyed 10,000 readers about their favorite airlines and airports. Although some of our competitors shine, US Airways "won" for "least favorite domestic airline" and "dirtiest airline cabin - domestic airline." The graphs below tell the story:

 

[electricjet98]

Part 2: Some guys just don't get it, and probably never will!

"Oopsie"?? YOU might want to read the part about Membership...as in = relating only to those who are actually members, and think on that just a wee bit....."Down with USAPA!!...I'll NEVER join or EVER, ever pay dues...but...Waaah!!..I can't vote and I'm not being represented to my complete satisfaction!!"... How utterly both "brilliant"..and just plain pathetic. Good luck actually selling that pitiful BS to any jury with an above room temp average IQ, on the happy thought that one such jury will be empaneled. Oh well..we'll all just have to see how it plays out over time. You might win, or your case might get destroyed..Who knows? Completely insane results come forth from courtrooms everyday. Heck!..Even OJay was initially found "Not Guilty" Of course..by that same sort of observation = There's simply no way to predict the outcome at the present time.

"2. After reviewing any tentative agreement, the Board of Pilot Representatives shall vote to either approve or reject a membership ratification ballot for such agreement. Only those ratification ballots approved by the Board of Pilot Representatives by a majority vote shall be forwarded to the affected membership for a ratification vote. Each approved ratification ballot must be accompanied by a BPR voting recommendation to “Approveâ€￾ or “Disapproveâ€￾ when distributed to all members in good standing."

As Elevation accurately pointed out, USAPA is once again in violation of their own C&BL's and just adding another stick to the DFR bonfire licking at their feet. The recent tentative agreement between USAPA and LCC that affected ONLY west pilots should have subject to a ratification vote by ONLY west pilots who were members in good standing...all 70 or 80 of them. That's just common sense since the vast majority of east pilots didn't have a clue as to what the details were...and USAPA didn't do anything to educate them. All USAPA did was to endorse the change which was an incredibly stupid decision! How many of you easties can truely say that you know what the age 58 upgrade limitation was all about?

 

[Phoenix]

Yeah but it is still some else's fault... ALPA, big bad management teams, terrorists etc. The list goes on and on. Still the reality is we make conscious choices every morning when we wake to continue or change our lives. No matter what we choose the burden of that decision is ours alone. You cannot deny personal responsibility when you are free to choose.

Crappy thing is even if we choose not to decide we still have made a choice! :blink:

Choice? What does "choice" have to do with it? Your premise is that "stupid" people (defined as people with an aggressive argument) deserve a punitive justice while "smart" people (the timid church mouse) deserve a gratuitous justice.

Don't bother responding until you discover a valid premise.

 

[Megasnoop]

Part 2: Some guys just don't get it, and probably never will!

As Elevation accurately pointed out, USAPA is once again in violation of their own C&BL's and just adding another stick to the DFR bonfire licking at their feet. The recent tentative agreement between USAPA and LCC that affected ONLY west pilots should have subject to a ratification vote by ONLY west pilots who were members in good standing...all 70 or 80 of them. That's just common sense since the vast majority of east pilots didn't have a clue as to what the details were...and USAPA didn't do anything to educate them. All USAPA did was to endorse the change which was an incredibly stupid decision! How many of you easties can truely say that you know what the age 58 upgrade limitation was all about?

Then quit whining about it and turn us into the NMB. File a complaint. See if we care. And while your filing that complain, please remind the NMB that you want age 58 FOs to remain in place, despite it being a violation of Federal Age Discrimination laws. The reason YOUR angry FOs wanted the age 58 rule to stay is so you can deprive upgrades for those over 58, while younger, more junior pilots get the upgrades.

Yeah, I hear the argument that its a win/win getting CA pay at age 58 while having great bidding position in the right seat. But the company can count the beans. Having a bunch of 58+ pilots drawing CA pay while in the right seat. Paying two CAs for each of those seats?
http://snip-the-snoop.org

 

[BoeingBoy]

But the company can count the beans. Having a bunch of 58+ pilots drawing CA pay while in the right seat. Paying two CAs for each of those seats?

So you finally see why people were amazed that USAPA would give that bargaining leverage up for free...

Jim

 

[traderjake]

"Waiting patiently for one's turn" to become a captain is much more truthfully descriptive...for those into truth.

"It's my turn Now",wasn't that Bob Dole's presidential campaign slogan.

The truth is you want to steal a Captain's job and give it to someone who couldn't hold it the day before the merger.

For those into truth.

 

[Metroyet]

Then quite whining about it and turn us into the NMB. File a complaint. See if we care. And while your filing that complain, please remind the NMB that you want age 58 FOs to remain in place, despite it being a violation of Federal Age Discrimination laws. The reason YOUR angry FOs wanted the age 58 rule to stay is so you can deprive upgrades for those over 58, while younger, more junior pilots get the upgrades.

Yeah, I hear the argument that its a win/win getting CA pay at age 58 while having great bidding position in the right seat. But the company can count the beans. Having a bunch of 58+ pilots drawing CA pay while in the right seat. Paying two CAs for each of those seats?
http://snip-the-snoop.org

Firstly, the Department of Labor has oversight, not the NMB. Moreover, it's an absolute falsehood to claim that the 58 rule is in any kind of violation of Age Discrimination Laws.

Secondly, the C&BL violation is as plainly obvious as the reason USAPA was formed in the Van in the first place.

Thirdly, you can be rest assured that a formal complaint will be filed. AWAPPA is heading that one up with their legal team and still has plenty of cash for the ancillary side jobs of protecting the West pilots from their new "union".

Finally, and most importantly, USAPA the new "business like" union with it's "professional" negotiators handed the company another free pass. USAPA got nothing, as they asked for nothing. This is who you're counting on for a vastly improved contract? Sadly, I think this little episode, punctuated by lost opportunity, failure and C&BL violations, is a foreshadowing of how well your new union is going to deliver you a better contract. It won't.

 

[nycbusdriver]

"It's my turn Now",wasn't that Bob Dole's presidential campaign slogan.

The truth is you want to steal a Captain's job and give it to someone who couldn't hold it the day before the merger.

For those into truth.

Oh, so given your totally apt Bob Dole analogy, captains are elected in your world?

I don't want anyone's captain job except the one I had here before America West started operations.

 

[EastUS]

Part 2: Some guys just don't get it, and probably never will!

On that? We can certainly agree. First you post: "Part one: A good move and a word of encouragement for USAPA!" ..then?.."Some gus don't get it, and probably never will"....Words simply fail me when dealing with some of the west folk at times ..it's akin to watching some unfolding study in schizophrenia and self delusion. To sum up, as best I'm readilly able to reduce these grand issues to their prime movers = "USAPA's the ultimate evil..becuase it denies me my complete Nic supremacy..(which is, of course, no "windfall"..but I'm utterly obsessed with obtaining it at ANY cost!!!") "I'll NEVER join/pay dues/vote/etc..but I'll whine my little tail off about not being "represented". "As a mighty Spartan warrior in the "Army" of Leonidas..I swear my sacred AWWHoppers Oath to do everything possible to destroy this ghastly affront to all who Righteously accept the all-knowing omniscience of St Nic, our Saviour...but..I'll sometimes cheer for something USAPA's working for that'd benefit MEEE!"

"Some guys just don't get it, and probably never will" seems to put it all both very gently and extreemly kindly....

Folks?...You just can't make this type of insanity up...............

PS: IF any wonder as to implications regarding actual mental "health" issues involved?..the immediately following posting should suffice to enhance my observations somewhat:

"NiceLanding": I know-usapa will do anything to hurt the west. That's the only logical reason......." Indeed, NLC..What could follow more naturally?,,given that we "all know" that the entire world, nay..entire universe, revolves around a few hundred west pilots..and any thought or action that ill suits their immediate purpose in any way must be part of some purely evil conspiracy. "I know"..an acceptance of established "Faith",...clearly the sentiments of a "True Believer"..in fact? A previously self proclaimed portion of the"Veritable glacier of Righteousness" out west (perhaps not to be confused with the Great Pumpkin)....immediately followed, of course by "The only logical reason"..........Indeed. No other explanation would even be possible..or "logical" ..."logical"??..as in; the "logic" of a cult perhaps....

electric: "How many of you easties can truely say that you know what the age 58 upgrade limitation was all about?" Better question = How many of your westies, now so up in arms about this, EVER opened your mouths to address it in ANY way?...Disregard. I'd almost forgotten for a moment that you were completely opposed to joining and voting..or "bothering" to do anything other than bring the union down., much less, make even the slightest effort to educate any out east as to your non-nic issues. I'd imagine it would be difficult to find air to even form words for anything else, when one's lungs are constantly employed bellowing out "I want my Nic!!,,Waaah!!"...and yes..I clearly see how such behaviour's all so very "logical"

 

[NiceLandingCaptain]

Then quite whining about it and turn us into the NMB. File a complaint. See if we care. And while your filing that complain, please remind the NMB that you want age 58 FOs to remain in place, despite it being a violation of Federal Age Discrimination laws. The reason YOUR angry FOs wanted the age 58 rule to stay is so you can deprive upgrades for those over 58, while younger, more junior pilots get the upgrades.

Yeah, I hear the argument that its a win/win getting CA pay at age 58 while having great bidding position in the right seat. But the company can count the beans. Having a bunch of 58+ pilots drawing CA pay while in the right seat. Paying two CAs for each of those seats?
http://snip-the-snoop.org

megasnoop -

Why don't you just leave things alone about which you know nothing. In your poorly focused zeal to defend your mighty mouse usapa, you pretty much just stepped in it.

All the 58 yo F/O's were getting captain's pay and retaining their high FO bidding seniority. And usapa has no business stepping into this without asking us or without educating the likes of you. The company wanted it changed - you and your shallow thinking usapa leadership just gave it to them. Gratis. How stupid is that? Has anyone there even a molecule of sense? My god, you just gave away one of the few cherries in the West contract.

I know - usapa will do anything to hurt the West. That's the only logical reason I can see for this latest east idiocy.

 

[Megasnoop]

Firstly, the Department of Labor has oversight, not the NMB. Moreover, it's an absolute falsehood to claim that the 58 rule is in any kind of violation of Age Discrimination Laws.

DOL has oversight over age discrimination. NMB has oversight over violations of the RLA. But who cares who has oversight. If not letting someone upgrade who is 58+ isnt age discrimination, then what is?

Thirdly, you can be rest assured that a formal complaint will be filed. AWAPPA is heading that one up with their legal team and still has plenty of cash for the ancillary side jobs of protecting the West pilots from their new "union".

Well good, knock yourselves out. USAPA cant negotiate with AWAPPA, since AWAPPA has no NMB standing. So best it go to complaint format. One more thing for you to waste your money on.

And Boeing Boy, Theres no leverage to use when your up against Federal Law. Fighting that change was a waste of time.
http://snip-the-snoop.org