US Pilots Labor Thread 3/4-3/11-READ THE FIRST POST

[ClueByFour]

This is not American Idol tv where someone is voted in, this is real life.

Given that USAPA is essentially trying to claim that "real life" is a straight popularity contest, I'd say that art really is imitating life. Bradford can be Clay Aiken....

I am sorry I do not quite understand the meaning of your vague post. Can you elaborate please sir.

Sure. It's a corollary of the "Flying Right Seat Mulligan." I trust you read last week's thread in it's entirety?

 

[nostradamus]

Given that USAPA is essentially trying to claim that "real life" is a straight popularity contest, I'd say that art really is imitating life. Bradford can be Clay Aiken....



Sure. It's a corollary of the "Flying Right Seat Mulligan." I trust you read last week's thread in it's entirety?

Thank you for your clarification that I requested in one of my most recent previous posts and the assistance you have provided in proving my point addressed in a another post of mine.

 

[Be Careful What You Wish For.]

I only heard from the posters that were not directly involved in the name of this thread and only when I addressed the need for their participation in this forum.

Apparently you out shine the message that you are trying to communicate.

 

[traderjake]

Those who have little or no time invested in any enterprise, have little or no appreciation or respect for time invested.

Those who have achieved little have little appreciation for achievement.

Becoming a Captain in 7 years means more than 20 years trying to become a Captain.

 

[Frank Bama]

From post #131;

"Key to all this is whether Parker denies our LOA93/LOA84 East snap-back. That could decide the pace. "


Answer; (from another site)


"We had Parker on the jump seat for about one and a half hours coming home from DCA tonight.

I asked this specific question. Among others.

Doug’s answer was absolutely not, no snap back. It is not in their contract. There was no maybe, there was no thinking about it, there was no the company will win a grievance. It was a flat no.

This is from the CEO directly."


The only way to get more money is to work together. Something that could have been done along time ago after Nic was implemented, which will happen anyway. What a waste.

 

[Piedmont1984]

Those who have achieved little have little appreciation for achievement.

Becoming a Captain in 7 years means more than 20 years trying to become a Captain.

Both are achievements. The 7 year captain had better fortune. But that doesn't mean the 20 F/O should have his years of service rendered worthless.

It didn't need to be a zero sum game.

Frank Bama

I have absolutely no doubt that Doug Parker will deny/has denied that we are entitled to any kind of snap back.
This is the same guy who denies we are entitled to parity, or an industry standard contract.

 

[cactusboy53]

WOW! Only 2.5 days into this thread and we have 157 posts!! I can't wait to see the week of April 29 - May 5 or better the week after. The trial is set for about 8 days, so it will indeed be an interesting Spring.

BTW....as I sat at my computer last week and voted for my USAPA (wretch...) officers, I happened upon the three other voting issues. How is USAPA able to vote on the America West Contract issues when it has NOTHING to do with them?? Further, why is USAPA not smart enough to NEGOTIATE those issues in the negotiating process and GET SOMETHING FROM THE COMPANY IN EXCHANGE??

 

[nycbusdriver]

Becoming a Captain in 7 years means more than 20 years trying to become a Captain.

I must take exception to your verbiage.

"Trying" has nothing at all to do with it. "Waiting patiently for one's turn" to become a captain is much more truthfully descriptive...for those into truth.

 

[nycbusdriver]

How is USAPA able to vote on the America West Contract issues when it has NOTHING to do with them??

Sorry you missed the news. On April 18, 2008, USAPA became the bargaining agent and administrator for the America West pilots' contract. THAT is how "USAPA [is] able to vote in the America West Contract issues. For further information, please contact the NMB.

 

[nic4us]

You brought your years of service. You earned your years of service. You paid for you years of service.

How can you equate your investment with someone who invested far less. You do yourself an injustice. You make your time worthless. You devalue your own worth.

Those who have little or no time invested in any enterprise, have little or no appreciation or respect for time invested.

"The years teach much, which the days never knew" R.W. Emerson

Sorry about your furlough. Best of luck.

Piedmont,

Very good post indeed, however I do have something to offer that is missing.

In the Virgin America example, although they are an entry airline, most entry airlines first hire for as much experience as they can get, knowing their first hires will be captains right off the street.

If I left USAirways, and used my investment here to get me hired there, I do not devalue my own worth, I have used my experience as a captain here it get me in on the ground floor there. If VA is then successful and merges with another airline, the only way my years of service invested are lost would be if the seniority of the two airlines were merged DOH.

You may be correct in your observation that those with little time invested do not appreciate that investment. I know I had less respect for experience until I got some.

I have not walked in East shoes, but I have walked, and it to should count for something greater than USAPA is offering with their unilateral decision of who's experience counts and who's does not.

 

[Elevation]

Sorry you missed the news. On April 18, 2008, USAPA became the bargaining agent and administrator for the America West pilots' contract. THAT is how "USAPA [is] able to vote in the America West Contract issues. For further information, please contact the NMB.

You might want to read your own constitution section V:

2. After reviewing any tentative agreement, the Board of Pilot Representatives shall vote to either approve or reject a membership ratification ballot for such agreement. Only those ratification ballots approved by the Board of Pilot Representatives by a majority vote shall be forwarded to the affected membership for a ratification vote. Each approved ratification ballot must be accompanied by a BPR voting recommendation to “Approveâ€￾ or “Disapproveâ€￾ when distributed to all members in good standing.

The East are not affected by a change in the west contract. Oopsie...

 

[Megasnoop]

WOW! Only 2.5 days into this thread and we have 157 posts!! I can't wait to see the week of April 29 - May 5 or better the week after. The trial is set for about 8 days, so it will indeed be an interesting Spring.

BTW....as I sat at my computer last week and voted for my USAPA (wretch...) officers, I happened upon the three other voting issues. How is USAPA able to vote on the America West Contract issues when it has NOTHING to do with them?? Further, why is USAPA not smart enough to NEGOTIATE those issues in the negotiating process and GET SOMETHING FROM THE COMPANY IN EXCHANGE??

Dave, where you been, guy? Over a month, no posts. It really doesnt make any difference how the age 58 to 63 vote comes out. Federal Law. No way your angry FOs are going to be able to keep 58+ers from upgrading. Its one of those age discrimination things. Too bad. The other issues? File a complaint at the NMB, see if any of us care.
http://www.snip-the-snoop.ru

 

[jetjok1]

Because of zero flexibility, you couldn't achieve your seniority desire in a course of negotiations.

So you gambled with all of those years and investments in an arbitration.

Now that the outcome is apparent, you've chosen to become the bully and steal back your losses.

You could have used some horse sense regarding this matter a long time ago, but instead went all in. And ended up betting your entire time and investment on people (Nicolau). That was a HUGE gamble.


I guess you like quotes. This one fits your situation:

Horse sense is a good judgment which keeps horses from betting on people. ~W.C. Fields

Well,

Two things come to mind from your post above. First, we did not gamble, go all in, betting the house, etc. It was decided for us by our illustrious Alpa-controlled leaders. Secondly, based on what you said above and I repeated on line 1, it sounds like your admitting, indirectly, that the Nic award, because we "went all in"and lost was, in fact, a windfall arbitration for the West. At least, that's the way I read it.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

I think the Nic is what George had in mind in the absence of anything reasonable from the east side to grab on to. Perhaps if the east had given him something more favorable to east pilots than George himself had in mind, yet not entirely unrealistic, he may have been willing to go there. Instead, we all know what the east gave him, and we all know what George did. Thats my take on going all in. The east gave George no other option than to go with what he had in mind, since they gave him a position so far out of bounds he couldn't do anything with it.

 

[Piedmont1984]

Piedmont,

Very good post indeed, however I do have something to offer that is missing.

In the Virgin America example, although they are an entry airline, most entry airlines first hire for as much experience as they can get, knowing their first hires will be captains right off the street.

If I left USAirways, and used my investment here to get me hired there, I do not devalue my own worth, I have used my experience as a captain here it get me in on the ground floor there. If VA is then successful and merges with another airline, the only way my years of service invested are lost would be if the seniority of the two airlines were merged DOH.

You may be correct in your observation that those with little time invested do not appreciate that investment. I know I had less respect for experience until I got some.

I have not walked in East shoes, but I have walked, and it to should count for something greater than USAPA is offering with their unilateral decision of who's experience counts and who's does not.

nic

If your post is a veiled endorsement of a national seniority list, I can't argue with you. But we live and work in an industry that is divided into separate "tribes". And national seniority is an idea which simply ran counter to tribe mentality.

Every merger is unique. Yes, the initial cadre of VA pilots probably has considerable experience. But at some point, pilots new to the industry will be hired. It is those pilots who should wait their turn behind industry veterans.

If you're a captain at VA, good for you and you should not be caused to lose your seat in a fair merger. But your experience argument loses traction when 20 year east pilots are slotted behind 2 year west pilots.

To have someone say "Nicolau gave me my seniority number in this merger when I was still in high school" - just ain't right.