US Pilots Labor Thread 3/18-3/25-MUST READ FIRST POST

[A320 Driver]

You keep thinking that there is only one way to the end.

You may begin to feel differently as circumstances change. There are a couple of hearings coming up that might shake your world.

100 east furloughs and downgrades could change your mind. Seperate ops may not be so good.

Last report I listened to indicated they wanted to reduce West flying in LAS. Didn't hear a thing about reducing East. We're still adding destinations.

A320 Driver

 

[Ardenian]

Read a filing...Someone s failing at their job.

This is why our collective pilot group will never get ahead. The mis-directed energy expended by superior legal minds like this while seated in the bleachers shows an inherent bush league mentality.

If you think you have what it takes, get in the ring and start throwing some punches. (HINT: THIS IS NOT A RING) Those who have can speak with authority. The others spend every night shadow-boxing in front of a monitor telling us about exactly how the judge will rule...or in some cases, the inside info they have on the next big merger.

 

[Tiger 1050]

LOL...The bird can sign until his beak falls off and that won't get you the NIC. Even if you win, you can't get by an East ratification vote if it includes the Nic. You can stomp your feet and pound your chest and you STILL will never be able to use it.

We can debate this forever...won't change a thing.



A320 Driver B)

A320,
It may be that the judge decides to avoid rewriting language in the TA. And rightly so. However there are other alternatives for remedy. Have you or anyone out east considered the possibility of USAPA having to pay all the downgraded Capt's and the furloughed F/O's as if they were not damaged by USAPA's actions? So it may come down to the judge offering you a simple choice. Choose to implement the nic or pay the harmed individuals. Ask yourself where USAPA would get the money for that... Just one of many creative possibilities that may be entertained by the court.

 

[Ardenian]

...considered the possibility of USAPA having to pay all the downgraded Capt's and the furloughed F/O's as if they were not damaged by USAPA's actions?

What Law Journal did this come from?

 

[Tiger 1050]

What Law Journal did this come from?

No law journal. Just something the court may or may not entertain. If you have been following this case then you know that the west is seeking injunctive relief. If the east is allowed to continue down the path they are on regarding the nic then the west class continues to be harmed. What good is an injunction if there is no relief. I do believe the judge will be reluctant to change/remove any language in the TA because that is clearly the NMB ball field. So what is it he can do to make the harmed individuals whole and prevent further harm from occurring. Either the nic is implemented or someone pays some form of restitution. The east has clearly articulated its desire to never ratify a contract with the nic. So where does that leave us? Do you really believe that a federal judge is just going to let you circumvent an arbitrated decision when there is harm being done? I don't know! But we shall see soon enough. I will be furloughed May 1st and will be watching from the sidelines...

 

[Phoenix]

... telling us about exactly how the judge will rule...or in some cases, the inside info they have on the next big merger.

Damn that was a low blow. Not even 320 deserved that... at least he had the creativity to come up with UCTs.

 

[Ardenian]

...I do believe the judge will be reluctant to change/remove any language...what is it he can do...

You are a young-un, ain't ya.

ADVICE FOR A LONG, HAPPY, FULFILLING LIFE FOLLOWS: Don't waste your time pontificating; either get involved directly, or sit it out.

Or transfer to LGA...

 

[GorgeousGeorge]

A320,
It may be that the judge decides to avoid rewriting language in the TA. And rightly so. However there are other alternatives for remedy. Have you or anyone out east considered the possibility of USAPA having to pay all the downgraded Capt's and the furloughed F/O's as if they were not damaged by USAPA's actions? So it may come down to the judge offering you a simple choice. Choose to implement the nic or pay the harmed individuals. Ask yourself where USAPA would get the money for that... Just one of many creative possibilities that may be entertained by the court.

If you want to hold the TA up as sacrosanct and stand on the belief that USAPA as the CBA has no ability to negotiate a new agreement with their own objectives, you will be getting stalemate. AWA ALPA was a party to the TA and if it requires separate dual ratification then no relief is required. The West ALPA MEC, ALPA, and the East MEC negotiated it that way for a reason and if USAPA is bound to it, as you like to argue then so was the West group that agreed to it. Your argument by holding the TA up isthe AWA pilots knowingly agreed to a provision that both parties would have to find a single agreement acceptable and ratify with no timetable.

 

[Ardenian]

I will be furloughed May 1st and will be watching from the sidelines...

Tiger, I am truly sorry to hear about your personal situation. We have all had our day of crap in this business.

But I'd like to share some perspective based on my (too many) years around aviation...

1. Shed the bad karma
2. Don't define yourself by the polyester uniform in the closet
3. Treat each day as a gift
4. Be honest and nice to all you meet...aviation is a small world
5. Say a prayer of thanks for all the good stuff in your life
6. Blow off steam here if you need to, but leave it at the computer desk

Negative vibes can be read by any prospective employer a mile away.

Best of luck in your off-line adventure, I wish you the best. We are all in this crap together.

 

[Tiger 1050]

Tiger, I am truly sorry to hear about your personal situation. We have all had our day of crap in this business.

But I'd like to share some perspective based on my (too many) years around aviation...

1. Shed the bad karma
2. Don't define yourself by the polyester uniform in the closet
3. Treat each day as a gift
4. Be honest and nice to all you meet...aviation is a small world
5. Say a prayer of thanks for all the good stuff in your life
6. Blow off steam here if you need to, but leave it at the computer desk

Negative vibes can be read by any prospective employer a mile away.

Best of luck in your off-line adventure, I wish you the best. We are all in this crap together.

Understood. Thanks.

 

[ClueByFour]

This is why our collective pilot group will never get ahead. The mis-directed energy expended by superior legal minds like this while seated in the bleachers shows an inherent bush league mentality.

Or, when the mob in the bleachers buys some snake-oil (from Seeham) and really thought that it could use the mob as a weapon. QED.

The others spend every night shadow-boxing in front of a monitor telling us about exactly how the judge will rule...or in some cases, the inside info they have on the next big merger.

Just out of curiosity, isn't "telling us about how the judge will rule" essentially how USAPA came into being? Really?

So, essentially, there is the distinct possibility that the outcome of all this is the status quo ante under ALPA (and probably legal fees for the west). I'm not convinced anyone is gonna be "made whole" on the west, but then one has to ask oneself: why gamble? It's the exact same mentality that really thought DOH/LOS would be a slam-dunk in arbitration and went for nothing less. It's really shaping up to be a beer and popcorn version of the "burn me once, shame on you..... et al" moment.

 

[A320 Driver]

No law journal. Just something the court may or may not entertain. If you have been following this case then you know that the west is seeking injunctive relief. If the east is allowed to continue down the path they are on regarding the nic then the west class continues to be harmed. What good is an injunction if there is no relief. I do believe the judge will be reluctant to change/remove any language in the TA because that is clearly the NMB ball field. So what is it he can do to make the harmed individuals whole and prevent further harm from occurring. Either the nic is implemented or someone pays some form of restitution. The east has clearly articulated its desire to never ratify a contract with the nic. So where does that leave us? Do you really believe that a federal judge is just going to let you circumvent an arbitrated decision when there is harm being done? I don't know! But we shall see soon enough. I will be furloughed May 1st and will be watching from the sidelines...

I am truly sorry to hear about your furlough. No one should have to go through that right now.

The company should not be flexing flying above 85 hours.
No pilot should accept flying above 85 hours.
Age 60 rule change came with a price.

Shifting gears to the upcoming litigation, isn't it up to the jury to decide remedies?

A320 Driver B)

 

[Waketurbulence]

Shifting gears to the upcoming litigation, isn't it up to the jury to decide remedies?

A320 Driver B)

No.

It amazes me that all the time you spend on this board, all the banter about this subject and all the court orders available to anyone who takes the time to stay informed, you have no idea of the upcoming process.

This is from the Judges Order on March 11, 2009 that denied the defendants Motion to Reconsider setting the trial date...

"This jury trial will only address the liability facts underlying
Plaintiffs’ class action. An additional bench trial will adjudicate any injunction-specific
facts shortly thereafter, and any monetary relief owing to the named plaintiffs and/or the
class could be dealt with in subsequent proceedings."

You see, we will only have to prove breach of contract which is the main claim for the DFR. With the mountain of evidence available and the ONLY defense from usapa being "Rejected at the dismissal stage" (same order) the jury will not have a hard time finding usapa in violation. Then the JUDGE will decide the remedies.

AND I do agree with you on one thing, nobody should be furloughed right now...on the West.

 

[Freighterguynow]

I do believe the judge will be reluctant to change/remove any language in the TA because that is clearly the NMB ball field.

As well as the company being a party to the TA but not to this lawsuit.

 

[Waketurbulence]

As well as the company being a party to the TA but not to this lawsuit.

Thats true and its the reason the company has responded to everything presented in negotiations EXCEPT the list that was passed by usopa.

The Judge left the door open to bring the company back into court if they don't honor the agreements. The company knows that. They are sitting on the sidelines watching us fight each other all the while, laughing their butts off all the way to the bank.

This trial is more about affirming the fact that usopa is not representing ALL pilots of US Airways. The company may be able to thow the West under the bus, and as much as ucspa is willing to throw the West under, legally they can't.

Parker has been living a wet dream for the last four years, compliments of the east.