US Pilots Labor Thread 3/4-3/11-READ THE FIRST POST

[Tiger 1050]

I can't help it...it's been said before. Lets pretend LCC buys with Virgin America next month. (pick any new entrant airline)

How do you feel about a guy with 2 years at VA who is number 10 at his company going to the top 1% of LCC? What you guys out west need is a merger exactly like this to help illustrate what the seniority list can look like without a hard and fast policy in place.

There's a reason EVERY other represented group at LCC and almost every other carrier has DOH under it's belt.

Pilots are greedy idiots at heart..and ALPA wanted to placate their dues....period.

Ya know what? I'll put it here for all the world to see and read!!!!

If I am furloughed (gonna happen 5/1) and we merge with someone, anyone, I don't expect my years of service to count for diddly squat! Why? Because I brought nothing to the merger. AND MORE IMPORTANTLY THE PILOTS AT AIRLINE X HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH MY MISFORTUNE! WHY WOULD I TRY TO RECOUP MY LOSES AT THEIR EXPENSE! If they came in atop their list then that is where I would expect to see them on the new list. Relative seniority is the only truly fair way to integrate in my opinion. I suspect you'll discount my comment because of my position in this merger but rest assured I expect nothing if a merger happens when I am out. Fair is fair. Call it a generational difference.

 

[Elevation]

How do you feel about a guy with 2 years at VA who is number 10 at his company going to the top 1% of LCC? What you guys out west need is a merger exactly like this to help illustrate what the seniority list can look like without a hard and fast policy in place.

The VA guy would keep his position as captain and be placed in relative seniority with the other A320 captains, not on a the precious wide body. The same as what happened to the number one guy at AWA he was placed in relative seniority to the narrow body captains with the 517 place on top of him. Nobody is moving into the 1%.

 

[Piedmont1984]

Ya know what? I'll put it here for all the world to see and read!!!!

If I am furloughed (gonna happen 5/1) and we merge with someone, anyone, I don't expect my years of service to count for diddly squat! Why? Because I brought nothing to the merger. AND MORE IMPORTANTLY THE PILOTS AT AIRLINE X HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH MY MISFORTUNE! WHY WOULD I TRY TO RECOUP MY LOSES AT THEIR EXPENSE! If they came in atop their list then that is where I would expect to see them on the new list. Relative seniority is the only truly fair way to integrate in my opinion. I suspect you'll discount my comment because of my position in this merger but rest assured I expect nothing if a merger happens when I am out. Fair is fair. Call it a generational difference.

You brought your years of service. You earned your years of service. You paid for you years of service.

How can you equate your investment with someone who invested far less. You do yourself an injustice. You make your time worthless. You devalue your own worth.

Those who have little or no time invested in any enterprise, have little or no appreciation or respect for time invested.

"The years teach much, which the days never knew" R.W. Emerson

Sorry about your furlough. Best of luck.

 

[souperfly]

You brought your years of service. You earned your years of service. You paid for you years of service.

How can you equate your investment with someone who invested far less. You do yourself an injustice. You make your time worthless. You devalue your own worth.

Those who have little or no time invested in any enterprise, have little or no appreciation or respect for time invested.

"The years teach much, which the days never knew" R.W. Emerson

Sorry about your furlough. Best of luck.

By God, sir, thats a good post.

 

[souperfly]

You brought your years of service. You earned your years of service. You paid for you years of service.

How can you equate your investment with someone who invested far less. You do yourself an injustice. You make your time worthless. You devalue your own worth.

Those who have little or no time invested in any enterprise, have little or no appreciation or respect for time invested.

"The years teach much, which the days never knew" R.W. Emerson

Sorry about your furlough. Best of luck.

It's so good, in fact, that I'm gonna expound on it a bit.

The very "expendable pilots" that the west is so eager to toss under the bus, paid the ultimate price for USAirways....They lost their jobs in order for USAir to survive in order to attract "merger money" for America West. They LOST THEIR JOBS to keep the entity alive. The "America West" pilots would all be unemployed without the shared sacrifice of East pilots over the years.
Many of these east pilots have 20+ years of service to USAirways. Of course, the west pilots don't give a $%*t...they should never feel the pain of a setback, or a furlough in their career. The airline that attracted the $$ for the merger for America West was sustained on the backs of sacrifices made by the pilots of USAirways..to include the ultimate price-payers'...east furloughees.

That the west pilots don't care about these sacrifices speaks for itself.



Isn't the trial gonna be great?

 

[toganoflex]

It's so good, in fact, that I'm gonna expound on it a bit.

The very "expendable pilots" that the west is so eager to toss under the bus, paid the ultimate price for USAirways....They lost their jobs in order for USAir to survive in order to attract "merger money" for America West. They LOST THEIR JOBS to keep the entity alive. The "America West" pilots would all be unemployed without the shared sacrifice of East pilots over the years.
Many of these east pilots have 20+ years of service to USAirways. Of course, the west pilots don't give a $%*t...they should never feel the pain of a setback, or a furlough in their career. The airline that attracted the $$ for the merger for America West was sustained on the backs of sacrifices made by the pilots of USAirways..to include the ultimate price-payers'...east furloughees.

That the west pilots don't care about these sacrifices speaks for itself.



Isn't the trial gonna be great?

Why don't you quit your crying for the night. You're starting to drone on an on.

 

[NiceLandingCaptain]

You brought your years of service. You earned your years of service. You paid for you years of service.

How can you equate your investment with someone who invested far less. You do yourself an injustice. You make your time worthless. You devalue your own worth.

Those who have little or no time invested in any enterprise, have little or no appreciation or respect for time invested.

"The years teach much, which the days never knew" R.W. Emerson

Sorry about your furlough. Best of luck.

Because of zero flexibility, you couldn't achieve your seniority desire in a course of negotiations.

So you gambled with all of those years and investments in an arbitration.

Now that the outcome is apparent, you've chosen to become the bully and steal back your losses.

You could have used some horse sense regarding this matter a long time ago, but instead went all in. And ended up betting your entire time and investment on people (Nicolau). That was a HUGE gamble.


I guess you like quotes. This one fits your situation:

Horse sense is a good judgment which keeps horses from betting on people. ~W.C. Fields

 

[souperfly]

Why don't you quit your crying for the night. You're starting to drone on an on.

The truth hurts doesn't it?

I'm here for ya, "brother"

 

[souperfly]

Why don't you quit your crying for the night. You're starting to drone on an on.

I'm sure you mean "on AND on..." but your emotions got in the way of your fingers...

It's OK..it'll be over soon.

 

[Piedmont1984]

So you gambled with all of those years and investments in an arbitration.

Now that the outcome is apparent, you've chosen to become the bully and steal back your losses.

I had no choice. No one asked me if I wanted arbitration. No one asked me how long the two sides should negotiate. The timeline and sequence of events were preordained from day one.

If you really believe it is theft to take back that which has been taken from you, then go forth - and sin no more.

 

[Megasnoop]

In this case that is why it was, in my opinion, a fundamental error on the part of East to enter into a negotiated settlement with West back before the Nicolau arbitration took place. Had they been willing to discuss anything other than full DOH/LOS than it is, in my opinion, likely that a negotiated result including fences, A-330 Transatlantic flying and slotting could have been reached. Instead they chose not to do so and accepted full and binding arbitration of all outstanding issues and then suffered a significant setback concerning what they had hoped to accomplish.

Right, hp. But that was an ALPO MEC, with all the arrogant leadership that we rejected. USAPAs DOH with C&Rs does not resemble the misguided ALPO MEC proposal.

I will note that even the Nicolau "win" for the West did keep them away from (if memory serves me correctly) the first 517 seniority slots and Transatlantic widebody flying.

hp, as I remember the NIC, once age 60 changed, the widebody fence came down. So thats gone before theres a single contract. If I got that wrong, Ill listen to any correction.


Also:

QUOTE (cleardirect @ Mar 4 2009, 03:21 PM)
If the west prevails it will be the Nicolau. The latitude will come in HOW the list is implemented. If the judge sets a time line for implementation.

Freigtherguynow replied:

ALPA merger policy specifically states you cannot sue to force implementation of the award. It can only come after membership ratification - no time limits either.

Again, Atlas and Polar. Merger announced 2001. Joint contracted ( hoped for ) by early 2010.

Your right, Freighterguy. The judge cant force a contract time limit. Perhaps his or the jurys ruling can force the NIC to be the "bargaining position." Maybe not. Were 4 months away from Sec 6 and 10 months away from contract amendable. West went amendable summer 2006, but West (ALPA controlling) blew it off. Key to all this is whether Parker denies our LOA93/LOA84 East snap-back. That could decide the pace. Add a Democratic majority at the NMB and you got some interesting times ahead. A 10-year stalling by the company on a new contract (2005-2014) will clean up the retirements to the point where a NIC list and a DOH list will be "relatively" the same.

But honestly, Freighterguynow, maybe your better off hauling boxes. I dont see this airline surviving in its current form. This E-W war has given Parker the perfect excuse to sell off the west (or east) and merge the east (or west) with UAL.

http://www.snip-the-snoop.icu

 

[hp_fa]

hp, as I remember the NIC, once age 60 changed, the widebody fence came down. So thats gone before theres a single contract. If I got that wrong, Ill listen to any correction.

That may well be correct. I don't know either way, but was rather referring to the Award as it was at the time it was rendered.

 

[wopr21]

I can't help it...it's been said before. Lets pretend LCC buys with Virgin America next month. (pick any new entrant airline)

How do you feel about a guy with 2 years at VA who is number 10 at his company going to the top 1% of LCC? What you guys out west need is a merger exactly like this to help illustrate what the seniority list can look like without a hard and fast policy in place.

There's a reason EVERY other represented group at LCC and almost every other carrier has DOH under it's belt.

Pilots are greedy idiots at heart..and ALPA wanted to placate their dues....period.

I'm glad you posted this....you read my mind

I don't see a Nic supporter defending that 2 year at VA

wopr

 

[souperfly]

yup. It's a one-way street with HP pilots...isn't it?

I'm still waiting for several retorts from todays fodder...

The truth renders' some quite quiet.

 

[BoeingBoy]

I don't see a Nic supporter defending that 2 year at VA

yup. It's a one-way street with HP pilots...isn't it?

Nice try - make it up and claim it's fact - but take a look at post #121...

Jim