US Pilots labor thread 11/5-

[spike99]

These are the only scenarios;

1. USAirways goes into chapter 11 followed by chapter 7.

2. Another merger occurs in which case the nicolau list will be merged into the acquiring/acquired carrier's seniority list.

3. USAirways survives as a stand alone in which case we will continue to operate under two contracts until every other carrier is earning significantly more than we do. As that day dawns and we continue to earn yesterday's pay in tomorrow's economy east pilots will eventually ratify a new contract. By definition that new contract will contain the Nicolau derived seniority list.

There is now zero chance that a new contract will exist with a do-over, east fantasy, new seniority list.

And why do you seem to think the Nic award will stand in the event of the merger with another carrier. Under the ALPA Merger policy which pertains to the Nic, and Judge Wake, the award would only have any weight IF it was ratified in a joint contract between the America West and US Airways pilots. Therefore, no contract between these two groups, and no Nic Arbitration award between thes two groups. Any seperate agreement between other groups need not contain a list which was never completed with a combined contractual vote. Any actual responses from Judge Wake's decisions which state otherwise, would be appreciated in rebuttals.

 

[aquagreen73s]

And why do you seem to think the Nic award will stand in the event of the merger with another carrier. Under the ALPA Merger policy which pertains to the Nic, and Judge Wake, the award would only have any weight IF it was ratified in a joint contract between the America West and US Airways pilots.

That's not how the injunction reads. Here's a refresher, pages 46 and 47 of Document 593:


"This injunction and order also illuminates USAPA’s untoward objectives,
informing the Airline and union members what the union is not permitted to do. To date,
the Airline has accepted the Nicolau Award and taken no bargaining position against it.
The injunction to follow protects the Airline in that course. The West Pilots’ original
claims against the Airline for breaching the Transition Agreement were dismissed for lack
of subject matter jurisdiction for failing to state any facts that suggested the Airline was
acting in concert with USAPA toward improper seniority objectives. The Airline’s
incentive to avoid needless liability places another healthy constraint on USAPA’s
bargaining.
USAPA will also be required to negotiate for the implementation of the Nicolau
Award as part of any single CBA, unmodified by additional conditions and restrictions
USAPA would place upon it. USAPA claims that it has the right to impose new
conditions and restrictions, invoking the historical fact that ALPA exerted pressure on the
West MEC to accept some form of “mitigation†of the Nicolau List. This very fact
undercuts USAPA’s request. ALPA exerted pressure because it did not hold unilateral
power to deprive the West MEC and the West Pilots of the arbitrated outcome. The West
Pilots remain entitled to a union that will not abrogate the Nicolau Award without a
legitimate purpose. Any waiver of that right must be “consensual.†[Ex. ## 1034 at 1;
1092; 1094.] A jury and this Court have found the union to be motivated by wrongful
objectives, and abundant evidence supports that finding. It would indulge those
objectives to allow USAPA to alter the Nicolau Award, and it would bestow upon
USAPA an unlawful power that ALPA neither possessed nor asserted."

 

[nic4us]

And why do you seem to think the Nic award will stand in the event of the merger with another carrier. Under the ALPA Merger policy which pertains to the Nic, and Judge Wake, the award would only have any weight IF it was ratified in a joint contract between the America West and US Airways pilots. Therefore, no contract between these two groups, and no Nic Arbitration award between thes two groups. Any seperate agreement between other groups need not contain a list which was never completed with a combined contractual vote. Any actual responses from Judge Wake's decisions which state otherwise, would be appreciated in rebuttals.

Spike,

What other list does anyone have to bring to the merger table. Under ALPA merger policy, the arbitration is complete, I will refrain from comments on national, and Prater's attempts to rob the West pilot group of our rights. But the fact remains, the list is complete, and not going away. The Nic has not been used for operational integration, as a joint contract has not been reached, however, it is quite final and binding, terms with which I am sure you are familiar.

What I am saying is a ratified joint contract does not make the Nic official, it is already the official seniority list for USAirays LCC. A joint contract allows the company to use the list in operational integration. However, the company is bound by the TA to use the Nic.

You are aware that there is a permanent injunction ( written by judge Wake) ordering usapa to us the Nic for negotiations with USAirways?

 

[LSS]

Spike,

What other list does anyone have to bring to the merger table. Under ALPA merger policy, the arbitration is complete, I will refrain from comments on national, and Prater's attempts to rob the West pilot group of our rights. But the fact remains, the list is complete, and not going away. The Nic has not been used for operational integration, as a joint contract has not been reached, however, it is quite final and binding, terms with which I am sure you are familiar.

What I am saying is a ratified joint contract does not make the Nic official, it is already the official seniority list for USAirays LCC. A joint contract allows the company to use the list in operational integration. However, the company is bound by the TA to use the Nic.

You are aware that there is a permanent injunction ( written by judge Wake) ordering usapa to us the Nic for negotiations with USAirways?

Asked whether a merger would be prevented by the inability to combine two pilot groups following the 2005 US Airways/America West merger, Parker responded: "All it means is that if indeed there was to be another merger, it would require yet again another seniority integration, (between) three groups instead of two."

 

[Metroyet]

"All it means is that if indeed there was to be another merger, it would require yet again another seniority integration, (between) three groups instead of two."

Oh, if Doug said so then....Sleep well. Nothing is Amiss.

(under oath, he's always changed his story but I guess you're comfortable with that)

 

[LSS]

Oh, if Doug said so then....Sleep well. Nothing is Amiss.

(under oath, he's always changed his story but I guess you're comfortable with that)

No opinion here... just relaying what our esteemed Doogie said...

 

[john john]

That's not how the injunction reads. Here's a refresher, pages 46 and 47 of Document 593:


"This injunction and order also illuminates USAPA’s untoward objectives,
informing the Airline and union members what the union is not permitted to do.

This is scarey the judge negotiating collective bargaining

 

[nycbusdriver]

This is scarey the judge negotiating collective bargaining

We're hoping the 9th sees it that way, too.

 

[cleardirect]

We're hoping the 9th sees it that way, too.

I would say that is the only thing the east has, is hope. The facts and case law say otherwise.

 

[aquagreen73s]

This is scarey the judge negotiating collective bargaining

Always the victim, eh?

The judge isn't negotiating collective bargainaing. Perhaps you should actually read the findings.

 

[Metroyet]

This is scarey the judge negotiating collective bargaining

USAPA broke the law, they were busted, and the Judge fixed it. That's it.

It would be far scarier to me to allow the majority to rape and pillage at will, all the while hiding behind some sanctimonious smoke screen of democracy and unionism.

The Jury seemed to feel that way as well. So will the 9th.

 

[nic4us]

Asked whether a merger would be prevented by the inability to combine two pilot groups following the 2005 US Airways/America West merger, Parker responded: "All it means is that if indeed there was to be another merger, it would require yet again another seniority integration, (between) three groups instead of two."

Perhaps it was a slip, and fortelling a three way merge, like the rumored CAL,UAL,LCC speculation.

But if as Parker said three groups are merged, No problem, we have three groups and 4 seniority lists, East, West, OAL and Nic. So when we decide where on the combined list some east pilot goes, (lets say Coello) no problem, he ends up on the new combined list somewhere below Odell. We do not rearrange LCC seniority, just as we did not rearrange AAA seniority when it was combined with AWA. So in effect the Nic is used.

 

[UtterlyUdder]

This is scarey the judge negotiating collective bargaining

In spite of the westies constantly whistling past the graveyard to the point of ad nauseum, you are right. They can write here until they are blue in their faces but that doesn't change the fact that the glorious fat lady hasn't sung yet. They think they have won something......let them delude themselves for a bit longer. 🙄 It will be fun to see what they think after the fat lady has had their way with them.

 

[cleardirect]

In spite of the westies constantly whistling past the graveyard to the point of ad nauseum, you are right. They can write here until they are blue in their faces but that doesn't change the fact that the glorious fat lady hasn't sung yet. They think they have won something......let them delude themselves for a bit longer. 🙄 It will be fun to see what they think after the fat lady has had their way with them.

There is that hope again. Keep it alive as long as possible.

My I suggest reading the late filed optional reply brief. Then explain what this had to do with DFR of the west.

The disempowerment of rank-and-file pilots regarding the seniority
integration process is almost total. East pilots:
• Never agreed that ALPA should represent them as a union;
• Never got to vote on ALPA’s Constitution and Bylaws;
• Never got to vote on ALPA Merger Policy;
• Never got to vote on the anti-seniority amendments to ALPA Merger
Policy;
• Never got to vote on the Transition Agreement; and
• Never got to vote on who their Merger Representatives should be.

Did the west pilots do this to the east? Are the east pilots so weak that you just let this happen? If you are born in the USA does the US constitution not apply because you did not get to vote on it? This entire filing smacks of desperation. Yes this case is over, some just have not figured it out yet.

 

[nic4us]

This is scarey the judge negotiating collective bargaining

Which part of collective bargaining is the judge negotiating? Seniority? That was negotiated prior to the trial.

What is actually scarey is a union founded on the principle of harming its own members.

What usapa is trying to do, would be akin to a labor group going on strike, new hires cross the line and once employed, vote in a new union, then negotiate a new contract rearranging seniority and placing the pre-strike employees below them, for "legitimate" reasons. i.e. the new majority thinks its the only "fair" thing to do.