US Pilots Labor Discussion

[BoeingBoy]

Exactly. Have you seen ONE east poster that wants anything to do with anything America West, past or present? None.

Yet, I'd give 10-1 odds that if USAPA somehow gets a contract with it's DOH list there'll be a line of hundreds of east pilots waiting for the first opportunity to bid captain in PHX...

Every eastie says they don't want anything the west has until the opportunity is there, then the bottom third of the east list will jump on those west captain bids in a heartbeat.

Jim

 

[luvn737s]

Did you not attend the brief where even ALPA cautioned that seniority is negotiable, and the Nicolau merely a bargaining position in an internal union struggle? I realize some do not understand bargaining agents and positions and the term "binding" as applied to the same, but you obviously have to. You need to educate some of those on your side as to the reality of internal union bargaining positions. Binding arbitration, in this case, obviously does not apply nor can it be enforced. If it could have been binding or enforceable, it would have been done.

BS-Where do I begin with your complete misunderstanding of the issue. Let's dive in.

The separate bargaining positions from east and west were simply bargaining positions during the negotiations and mediation phases. When it went to an arbitrator, both sides agreed that the result would be the seniority methodology used during the implementation. The company did not pay $600K for a bargaining position. Would they pay anything for a Hostage and Internment bargaining position? How about vacation, what did they pay for that?

Next, the parties to the agreement are the PILOTS in the service of, not the agent. You should know this and accept it. The agent can change, but they continue to administer the agreements of the previous agent (or at least they should, USAPA being the lone exception as they make up their rules ad hoc).

So why is binding not enforced? Because of the mechanics of implementing the seniority integration as part of the joint contract (one list - two disparate contracts, you see the problem). The courts understand the mechanics of this and realize that they don't feel it's their place to replace the votes of the pilots for one section of the contract AND they know that the pilots have the right to vote down what they don't like (and vote out a union that doesn't serve them).

So try to forget the crap you've been fed about "bargaining position" and evaluate whether or not you think your unions mission to disenfranchise and divide the pilot group will yield a better or worse joint contract. No contract isn't an option. That should be a clear DFR. So there will be a contract. USAPA could roll the dice and put out a DOH contract, but it would not be any better than the Kirby offer because the company knows that they can exploit the divided pilot group to their advantage. USAPA could turn the union over to the teamsters (a likely scenario if Judge Silver rules that Nicolau must be used) and let them spend the money to jam the airline together (since they have no "side" in the issue, a net positive, actually).

Or they could meet behind closed doors in their Bubba Bunker (with new skirting around the outside I might add and a shiny Taurus parked out front) and revoke pilot ratification and under some made-up emergency and decide (8-2 no doubt) to have BPR ratification of a DOH contract.

If the Angry F/O's really wanted to pull this one off, they would filed for Single Carrier and formed USAPA before the Nic came out. Then they could have chosen whatever integration they wanted.

Now as to the negotiability of seniority, I actually agree. On the next contract. The first joint contract is a different animal and played by slightly different rules. The list has been arbitrated and delivered. Next stop: a contract. A crummy one, thanks to the guys you voted in, but that's the bed you made.

Or you can vote for real change and de-certify USAPA and replace them with a bipartisan union that can actually negotiate coherently with management like adults rather than little kids, and whose lynchpin will be unity and all the strength and benefits that come with it.

I can't beleive I spent all this time explaining what you must already know. :angry:

 

[767jetz]

Says the biggest idiot on the block!



Hey a**wipe, how many real airlines did you turn down to work for your pathetic, has been, twice bankrupt, almost liquidated, poverty wage paying, 17 year furloughed, international wanna-be, ugly girl at the dance, airline?

PS. rhetorical question. We all know the answer is zero because you couldn't get hired anywhere else, even when you were recently furloughed.

OMG! Looks like the poster formerly know as nostradamus finally blew a fuse. I lost count how many times he through the word "idiot" around. Moderators have their work cut out.

Now it's Black Swans turn. I can smell the smoke coming from his keyboard. More of that "wishful interpretation" of the law.

 

[sumadarson]

OMG! Looks like the poster formerly know as nostradamus finally blew a fuse. I lost count how many times he through the word "idiot" around. Moderators have their work cut out.

You wish.

You sound as confused as a united pilot, oh, thats right you are one.

 

[doh nogo]

OMG! Looks like the poster formerly know as nostradamus finally blew a fuse. I lost count how many times he through the word "idiot" around. Moderators have their work cut out.

Yup. Definitely blew a fuse.

Plus I think he finally outed himself as being who everyone claims he is. Oh well. One less lie for him to perpetuate.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Nos' heros

 

[cleardirect]

What does the dissenting opinion count for anything? And especially Wake. The one who totally blew the entire deal for you. Ask Bobby Baldock how he got daddy to call Wake in to try and help and posted it all over the web. What a colossal screw up! That one will come back to haunt you in your DFR 1 2 3 4 or whatever you are scheming. The classic was that idiot Wake going for the damages, and thinking about imposing Nicolau! And your counsel actually didn't try and stop him before the NMB parachuted in! Wake was the biggest loose screw in the judicial mess of Arizona! Fodase- And I am going to try to refrain from calling you names as you are infamous for. Covers for any semblance of intelligent vernacular in my opinion. Are you seriously going to put any weight on the dissenting opinion in the rule of law? So what if he dissented,tell us how the COURT eventually went down in rule .Not the dissenting opinion! Who cares about the dfr? Has nothing to do with the law or binding arbitration.The dfr is just another Leonidas pipe dream, acknowledged by the 9th. So before you call anyone a clown or talk about diarrhea, look in the mirror. If there was Federal Law, and it was ignored, your Leonidas group would be on it like the sue happy termites they are. There was none, and you can't cite it for all the drivel and clownspeak you are famous for. Nothing. You circled all around the issue, and can't make one unclownlike argument.

Is the LMRDA federal law?

How is that enforced?

 

[sumadarson]

alpa web site.

Please look to the right colum and click on notice to all united pilots. It has bee on the alpa web site for 2 and 1/2 years.

 

[sumadarson]

Now the united pilots gave 9 million dollars to lawyers. The west pilots were billed for two million, but they only paid 500,000. If you are a lawyer, will you ever want to represent the west again?

 

[BoeingBoy]

The same happened to the APA (and the court imposed penalty was $45 million). That might have happened while you were watching TV or sleeping in the breakroom instead of doing your Utility job. Shows what USAPA will face if there's any signs of a slowdown or job action....smart people would read it and heed the warning but USAPA and you???

Jim

 

[sumadarson]

More of that "wishful interpretation" of the law.

Trying to give junior pilots, what the senior ones deserved and earned, typical alpa policy that cost them.

Being a united pilot, you are experts on wishful interpretation of the law.

 

[Metroyet]

Trying to give junior pilots, what the senior ones deserved and earned, typical alpa policy that cost them.

Being a united pilot, you are experts on wishful interpretation of the law.

FYI that Wal-Mart paycheck you earned between December 2001 and December 2007 really has no bearing on your argument as it pertains to being an airline pilot. Furloughed is a nice term for UNEMPLOYED.

Not worth much. I'm sure you'd be pretty senior now at the Moon Township Wal-mart however...you should call the manager and see if you can get your old job back.

on second thought, never mind. I think we all know the answer to that question.d

 

[sumadarson]

FYI that Wal-Mart paycheck you earned between December 2001 and December 2007 really has no bearing on your argument as it pertains to being an airline pilot.

Frankly the west pilots should stick to their day job, drug running and id theft. Your pilot pay over the years is a joke.

Lets crunch some numbers.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Trying to give junior pilots, what the senior ones deserved and earned, typical alpa policy that cost them.

To quote BS' favorite legal blog writers...

"The reality, however, is that seniority is really purchasing power–akin to a credit card or cash. Its value is in what it buys you; not in a particular spot on a list. An integration can put a pilot “lower” on the seniority list in terms of the number of pilots ahead of him, while actually maintaining or even increasing the purchasing power of his seniority. Persuading pilots that is the case is the key to obtaining acceptance of a seniority integration and doing it in a way that is not disruptive to later relations between the two pilot groups."

Being unemployed didn't give you much purchasing power going into this merger, did it???

Jim

 

[Metroyet]

To quote BS' favorite blog writers...

"The reality, however, is that seniority is really purchasing power–akin to a credit card or cash. Its value is in what it buys you; not in a particular spot on a list. An integration can put a pilot “lower” on the seniority list in terms of the number of pilots ahead of him, while actually maintaining or even increasing the purchasing power of his seniority. Persuading pilots that is the case is the key to obtaining acceptance of a seniority integration and doing it in a way that is not disruptive to later relations between the two pilot groups."

Being on furlough didn't give you much purchasing power in this merger, did it???

Jim

Jim. At some point, even they clinically insane will realize they can't get a one for one exchange rate when they're holding rupees, looking to exchange for pound sterling. Someday.