US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Phoenix]

How "East" of you to be more concerned with the messanger than with the message.

Did you not understand your own "message"? You're the one who's message was "I have integrity and am impartial because I am not a pilot on the East or the West."

You're the one who proclaimed to be a zealot without a cause, yet don't have the integrity to prove it. In the words of your fellow "causeless zealot", we want PROOF.

 

[cleardirect]

so, alpo is the answer? Give me a break. That POS organization only knows how to maintain the national organization by bribing its member leaders with national jobs.
The membership takes it on the chin for the greater good.
That solution is like curing cancer by shooting yerself in the head.
Y'all can do better than that!
Give me solutions, boys. SOLUTIONS. The path to wealth and happiness and harmony.
What is it?
So far I just see alpo wannabe's and complainers, but no real thinkers.

So how is the independent union of usapa working? Is membership taking it on the chin or gaining being independent? Is the greater good being served by usapa?

Are ALL members being served or like alpa certain segments of the membership gaing over other segment? Is usapa concentrating on where the money comes from and ignoring the smaller carrier?

You guys were so quick to blame alpa that they had a conflict of interest yet here were are. usapa with a huge conflict of interest. Choosing sides and picking winners. So much for a "better" union.

 

[cactusboy53]

The true test of integrity...Integrity would require you to reveal if you, your spouse, or a family member, have ever worked for one of the parties in dispute, especially since your emphatic denial of being a pilot on either side is presented as your qualification for being impartial...

Now that's funny. Phoenix (presumably an east pilot & USAPA supporter) soap-boxing on what integrity is and is not.

Here are a few quotes for you to chew on:

"He/She will conduct his/her affairs w/ ALPA & it's members in accordance with the rules laid down in the constitution and by laws of ALPA and withing the policies and interpretation promulgated therefrom...." ALPA Code of Ethics & Cannons.

"....despite a year of negotiating efforts, there was no agreement on a list. Subsequently, the Representatives choose the Undersigned as Board Chairman and opted for the Med-Arb process. Those mediation efforts, held over the course of five days in October 2006, were similarly unsuccessful. Thereafter, the Parties agreed on the arbitration ground rules......" The Nicolau Opinion & Award; May 1, 2007

"No ALPA seniority integration arbitration result has ever been set aside by the courts although some dissatisfied pilots have challenged the award before administrative agencies and the courts." Todd Cardoza, Mike Cleary & Randy Mowrey; US AIRWAVES June/July 2000

As former members of ALPA we are all bound to follow the agreed upon tenets of all processes in the ALPA Constitution. PERIOD. USAPA, as the new collective bargaining agent, is REQUIRED to take over, support and defend all existing contracts and agreements. PERIOD.

You have managed significant delay, and huge losses of financial gain (NEVER to be reclaimed). That is all. We will not roll over and hand over to you what you think you are entitled to. The courts will force you to do what integrity should have led you to do. When Doug Parker announced his plans to acquire US Air SIX YEARS AGO, I thought surely this merger couldn't even come close to eclipsing the NWAL / REPUBLIC merger (BOY! Was I ever wrong.) USAPA & its supporters are the pariah of the airline industry, and wouldn't know INTEGRITY if it came up and bit them on the backside.

 

[767jetz]

It's called UNITY and SOLIDARITY. They pulled off a nationwide picketing event with almost 1000 pilots.

My UA friends report that they had pilots from Delta, AA, Spirit, several regional airlines, and flight attendants as well marching shoulder to shoulder with them.

Thanks. Yes there were many pilots from other airlines that came out to support us. I marched with a DL pilot and 2 AA pilots.

Someone please inform Nos that I am in the pictures from the LGA picket, not the ORD picket. 😀

And for the record, 767jetz is right. I never remember him saying that management will roll over and hand them what they want without a fight.

- I DO remember 767jetz telling you that the CO and UA pilots would overcome their differences and come together in unity, which they obviously have. (YOU WERE WRONG)

- I DO remember him telling you that UA will have a contract LONG before we ever will with USAPA in control. (Far more sections closed and in a shorter time than USAPA can ever hope for. YOU WERE WRONG AGAIN)

- I DO remember him saying that the recall of Wendy Morse would go nowhere since they didn't have the votes to make it happen. (yup! WRONG ONE MORE TIME)

You are correct on all points. I never said UA management would roll over. We will achieve the contract we deserve through unity and a fight against management, not among ourselves. (Something USAPA will never achieve) The proof will be in the final results. There are always those who will try to derail progress for their own political gain. And the pilots of UA and CO have overcome those attempts at every turn. Examples would be the dispute about pay banding of the 747 and 777 that was resolved, and more recently the recall attempt of Wendy Morse that did not have the votes.

Nos has been posting lies all along claiming that UA and CO pilots would never come together in unity. Just like at Delta, ALPA will prevail at UA and demonstrate to USAPA, their cast of amateurs, and people like Nos how professionals succeed. Much to his chagrin, the unified UA pilots will not suffer the same fate as Nos. Keep in mind that when he is wrong he conveniently forgets his accusations and resorts to more attacks and new accusations. He tries to redirect the conversation and can't stand when you continue to point out his errors. Whether he is jealous, angry, resentful, or just suffers from some personality disorder is inconsequential. Don't let it get to you. The best thing to do is ignore him. He's not important enough to waste your breath.

 

[cleardirect]

It's not that simple and that is your problem... If it was that simple this would be easy...

remember even your beloved ALPA says "protect career expectations" and that is not what was done as the NIC delays an older EAST pilot's upgrade while advancing a younger WEST pilot's upgrade.

But it is a simple question. This might be the center of the problem. It is simple.

At the time of the merger AWA had 1853 pilots on property. Zero furloughs.
At the time of the merger AAA had 3176 pilots on the property. 1775 furloughs. 3176 ACTIVE pilots

Dave O'Dell' seniority at the time of the merger was 1853/1853= 100%
Monda's seniority at the time of the merger was 3176/3176=100%
So you see these two had the exact seniority.

Celollo was furloughed at the time meaning that AAA had excess pilots.
Colello's seniority at the time of the merger was 3177/3176= +100%

Varini's seniority at the time of the merger was 4951/3176=155.8%

Using just attrition and stand alone numbers what year would Varini be recalled to AAA? (Assuming AAA stayed in business)

Would someone like to post a graph of Varini's seniority just like EF's graph so we can see how his stand alone is improved? How EF can have a seniority number in excess of 100% using DOH.

You see it is simple if you are honest and answer question truthfully. But I guess trying to hide or avoid facts makes it difficult.

Here are simple questions.

How much seniority did Monda have at the time of the merger?
How much seniority did Colello have at the time of the merger?
How much seniority did O'Dell have at the time of the merger?
How much seniority did Varini have at the time of the merger?

You see I did not say anything about the Nicolau or career expectations or a pilots age. I asked for a starting point and you could not even admit that fact.

 

[BoeingBoy]

It is unreasonable to expect any one or any group to allow itself to be bound to an outcome for which it does not agree. Contracts 101. Need I say more?

So since you are bound by LOA 93 you agree with it? You are bound by the pension loss, so you agree? Contracts 101 you know...

Jim

 

[Phoenix]

Now that's funny. Phoenix (presumably an east pilot & USAPA supporter) soap-boxing on what integrity is and is not.

...

Hey, Skippy, my observation about Metroyet was that s/he has integrity because it takes a lot to admit that you are a zealot without any basis for being so. There are few posters on this board with the zeal of Metroyet, yet s/he has admitted s/he isn't even a pilot affected by the dispute. It takes amazing integrity to proclaim oneself to be a zealous moron. It was a compliment, if you will.

As to the rest of your post, show us where anyone agreed to stop being Americans with a right to avail themselves of every means available for a redress of grievances.

Carry on.

 

[PullUp]

So how is the independent union of usapa working? Is membership taking it on the chin or gaining being independent? Is the greater good being served by usapa?

Are ALL members being served or like alpa certain segments of the membership gaing over other segment? Is usapa concentrating on where the money comes from and ignoring the smaller carrier?

You guys were so quick to blame alpa that they had a conflict of interest yet here were are. usapa with a huge conflict of interest. Choosing sides and picking winners. So much for a "better" union.

Still no solutions. No answers. Just complaints.
I give up...there is no intelligent life out there.
Bye

 

[cleardirect]

After reading the rantings of usapa the last few days I have come to a conclusion.

You east pilots have "aviation envy".

How much do you guys wish and want to be Southwest pilot? All the updates lately have talked about how great it would be to work for Southwest. Well go boys go. I am sure that SWA would be more than happy to have you fine upstanding and honest guys working for that organization.

But wait. I thought AAA was the end all be all airline to work for. In reality SWA is just a big commuter. They only have 737, NO international, NO wide body airplanes. Why would anyone want to work for that outfit?

Could it be that there are more important things in life than the metal you fly or the base you fly out of?

But you guys are never going to be SWA pilots and never going to be treated like SWA pilots and never going to be paid like SWA pilots. The very first reason is SWA pilots don't try or threaten to burn down the airline every 6 months when management does not fold to your demands. They do not run the APU across the country thinking they are getting over on the company. The union, pilots and company have respect for each other. Not like you guys that threaten and insult everyone constantly.

Aviation envy. Hoping for something you are never going to get.You guys wanted usapa, you got it. Enjoy! Go back and look at the videos from PHX when usapa came to "sell" the dream. Truer words were never spoken. A west pilot stood up and said. "Gentlemen they are laughing at you"

Gentlemen everyone is laughing at you. Management, west pilots, pilots from other airlines, alpa, teamsters,other unions, and Seham all the way to the bank. So I guess the clown name kind of fits. You make people laugh in a tragic sort of way.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Still no solutions. No answers. Just complaints.
I give up...there is no intelligent life out there.
Bye

The solution is simple but the East won't accept it - stand by the agreements you made and accept the Nic Award.

Since that isn't going to happen, possibly even after a court has ruled against the East, the only option is to continue on the present course. Let the courts, all the way to at least the appeals court, rule, get a contract, and see if it passes or not.

Unless you've got some other suggestions, but any have to take into account that there is no one to represent the West in any negotiated settlement.

Jim

 

[Phoenix]

After reading the rantings of usapa the last few days I have come to a conclusion.

...

.... "Gentlemen they are laughing at you"

Gentlemen everyone is laughing at you. ...

News flash Headlines....

"Long and Bitter Seniority Dispute Misguided, Never Was About Seniority"

"Should Have Been Seeking Applause All Along"

"The West Has Already Achieved Total Victory, East Is Laughingstock"

 

[cactusboy53]

As to the rest of your post, show us where anyone agreed to stop being Americans with a right to avail themselves of every means available for a redress of grievances.

Carry on.

You did. No malfeasance or wrong doing found in our merger process. ALPA delivered the list. List accepted by CEO of airline and found in compliance of tenets of the company's agreement with the pilots.

The only thing you have availed yourself of is dropping 10+ MILLION dollars in mis-spent legal fees. SSM & P have advised you into a corner. You have also availed yourself into the continuance of LOA 93. HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS of dollars in LCC's pocket in exchange for a paper chase & delay.

Speaking of grievances, is FO Parella still planning on doing a grievance OFF time schedule at the behest of Mike Cleary just to screw the west pilots in some fashion (again)? What a great "union".

USAPA = Follow the Yellow Brick Road, OZ is just around the corner!

 

[Phoenix]

You did. ...

If you are going to respond to a question it would be helpful to answer the question. "...show us where anyone agreed to..." I didn't ask "Who", I asked you "where", (as in what document or evidence do you have that anyone gave up their right to be an American and use the courts and lawyers?)

Courts and lawyers, its so American.

P.S. You do know what "Plaintiff" means, don't' you.

 

[No Land Green]

After reading the rantings of usapa the last few days I have come to a conclusion.

You east pilots have "aviation envy".

How much do you guys wish and want to be Southwest pilot? All the updates lately have talked about how great it would be to work for Southwest. Well go boys go. I am sure that SWA would be more than happy to have you fine upstanding and honest guys working for that organization.

But wait. I thought AAA was the end all be all airline to work for. In reality SWA is just a big commuter. They only have 737, NO international, NO wide body airplanes. Why would anyone want to work for that outfit?

Could it be that there are more important things in life than the metal you fly or the base you fly out of?

But you guys are never going to be SWA pilots and never going to be treated like SWA pilots and never going to be paid like SWA pilots. The very first reason is SWA pilots don't try or threaten to burn down the airline every 6 months when management does not fold to your demands. They do not run the APU across the country thinking they are getting over on the company. The union, pilots and company have respect for each other. Not like you guys that threaten and insult everyone constantly.

Aviation envy. Hoping for something you are never going to get.You guys wanted usapa, you got it. Enjoy! Go back and look at the videos from PHX when usapa came to "sell" the dream. Truer words were never spoken. A west pilot stood up and said. "Gentlemen they are laughing at you"

Gentlemen everyone is laughing at you. Management, west pilots, pilots from other airlines, alpa, teamsters,other unions, and Seham all the way to the bank. So I guess the clown name kind of fits. You make people laugh in a tragic sort of way.

hmmmm, who's angry here? LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I laugh every time we have an equipment bid on the East.........Thanks for the rant, I'm laughing at you. Glad to see everyone is laughing now......Can you back up the laughing with facts? LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[crazystnic]

After reading the rantings of usapa the last few days I have come to a conclusion.

You east pilots have "aviation envy".

How much do you guys wish and want to be Southwest pilot? All the updates lately have talked about how great it would be to work for Southwest. Well go boys go. I am sure that SWA would be more than happy to have you fine upstanding and honest guys working for that organization.

But wait. I thought AAA was the end all be all airline to work for. In reality SWA is just a big commuter. They only have 737, NO international, NO wide body airplanes. Why would anyone want to work for that outfit?

Could it be that there are more important things in life than the metal you fly or the base you fly out of?

But you guys are never going to be SWA pilots and never going to be treated like SWA pilots and never going to be paid like SWA pilots. The very first reason is SWA pilots don't try or threaten to burn down the airline every 6 months when management does not fold to your demands. They do not run the APU across the country thinking they are getting over on the company. The union, pilots and company have respect for each other. Not like you guys that threaten and insult everyone constantly.

Aviation envy. Hoping for something you are never going to get.You guys wanted usapa, you got it. Enjoy! Go back and look at the videos from PHX when usapa came to "sell" the dream. Truer words were never spoken. A west pilot stood up and said. "Gentlemen they are laughing at you"

Gentlemen everyone is laughing at you. Management, west pilots, pilots from other airlines, alpa, teamsters,other unions, and Seham all the way to the bank. So I guess the clown name kind of fits. You make people laugh in a tragic sort of way.

********************

your writing is what is laughable.. The SWA pilots have never had to stand up for anything.. Good for them.. They work for a company that makes lots of money... so they don't need a shitty relationship with mgmt.. But you still don't get it... It's Doug Parker's contempt for this work force that has brought on this fight....
If he really gave a #### why wouldn't he say .. you know what boys.. I know we don't have a contract and I know things kind of suck.. but we are going to do 3% raise across the board as a gesture of good will... Know let's get together and fix this...
Instead he just keeps hiding and delaying and building up the anger..

I still predict we will implode within 2 years because all labor groups are being boxed into a corner...
I'm glad you think it's USAPA's fault..

that is the joke ... your reasoning.

You are the clown sir.