US Pilots Labor Discussion

[A320 Driver]

Why is that? Because only management types can pontificate on indisputable facts? Because only management types understand how business and economic principles work in real life? Because only management types don’t hate their jobs and their bosses? Because only management types have a positive or realistic outlook regarding the state of the company? Why is it that these characteristics and qualities are so rare among non-management types?

If I were in management I would have been fired long ago for posting on this board. All company statements and positions are made through Corporate Communications. So a management type posting here would violate both the policy on who is allowed to speak for management and the policy for not using company computers to post on web/chat boards. Not only that, but if I were a management type I would be constrained to not violate company policy because doing so would be morally/ethically wrong, not to mention who would want to lose their paycheck over something like using this forum?

So I guess that means I must be Doug’s golf partner. Oh, wait I haven’t play golf with Doug either. So maybe I’m his caddy and he gives me a crisp $10 bill for putting a nice shine on his clubs and for speaking the truth on this board. Could that be it?

I don’t think the NIC or the Kirby proposal sticks it to the east in any way. The NIC is exceedingly fair and it is also the only way to close out section 22 in order to get to a JCBA – at least in my opinion. The ratios NIC used actually favor the east over the west by a small margin on the combined list. Thdoesn'tt doesn’t advance as much under NIC and thdoesn'tt doesn’t lose as much under NIC as all the hysterics make it out to be. The only thing that seems unfair to me is for the east to be led by a corrupt and despotic “union” that lies in order to gain power and delay any real contract enhancements that the east pilots could otherwise attain. LOA93 is worse than the NIC+Kirby and yet I am branded as an extremist for claiming so. I am still amazed at how hostintolerantllerant people can be toward hearing the truth.

Your "TRUTH" is your opinion, just like mine. You have YOUR reality and I have mine. Follow the money and see where it leads. And it leads STRAIGHT to a few at the top. There is NOTHING you could say or do to convince me that, outside of the necessity of a corporate transaction, this management would want, out of the GOODNESS of their hearts mind you, a pilot contract. Based on their posture so far, it doesn't make sense or add up. It costs them millions that they do not HAVE to spend under the current circumstances. IMO, to believe anything else is at best naive.

Driver B)

BTW, somebody tell the hall monitors the Spell Checker is on the fritz.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Your "TRUTH" is your opinion, just like mine. You have YOUR reality and I have mine. Follow the money and see where it leads. And it leads STRAIGHT to a few at the top. There is NOTHING you could say or do to convince me that, outside of the necessity of a corporate transaction, this management would want, out of the GOODNESS of their hearts mind you, a pilot contract. Based on their posture so far, it doesn't make sense or add up. It costs them millions that they do not HAVE to spend under the current circumstances. IMO, to believe anything else is at best naive.

Driver B)

BTW, somebody tell the hall monitors the Spell Checker is on the fritz.

Is it truth or fiction that Management has claimed in multiple venues that the Kirby Proposal is still on the table? In your opinion, what do you think Management would do is USAPA accepted the NIC and the Kirby proposal tomorrow?

 

[PullUp]

Because it needs to be done. Because it’s the right thing to do. Because no one would choose to perpetuate interminable separate ops and separate contracts when a solution can be gained at the bargaining table. Because they have told the courts and the NMB that the Kirby proposal was still a valid offer. Because they think it is a valid and fair offer for a JCBA. Because the east temper tantrum has already saved them hundreds of millions of dollars since 2007. Because they would rather find a peaceful equilibrium than to be in federal court suing a labor union that is completely detached from reality.

Here are some questions for you. Why does Management give raises and bonuses to non-contract employees when they are under no obligation to do so? Why do they give employees Triple Play bonuses for good DOT performance? Why do they give A&B awards every quarter? Why do they have a Chairman’s Award program? None of these are contractually required and they all cost the company money that they would otherwise not spend if they actually hated employees as so many seem to suggest.

"Right thing to do"???!!! Ha Ha Ha Ha Ha. After all that pontificating about Business 101, you pull that trash out of your hat?
The only reason the corporate bigwigs would want to conclude this merger is if there was $$$$ in it for them.
Period.
Kirby stinks. Sure, you think it's great, because it is concessionary.
As for employee 'bonuses' (ha ha ha), it is because the management types realize their bonuses (millions) by paying rampers and agents $50/month. That's an excellent ROI, and management laughs all the way to the bank.
It is insulting to the pilot group.
Previous poster has you pegged - definitely management or one of their minions.
Cheers.

 

[A320 Driver]

Is it truth or fiction that Management has claimed in multiple venues that the Kirby Proposal is still on the table? In your opinion, what do you think Management would do is USAPA accepted the NIC and the Kirby proposal tomorrow?

That is a very good question. I've been in the room on more than one occasion when DP was asked about it. I've seen Crew News when Kirby himself was asked about. I don't recall a flat out definative answer to the question. I do recall a lot of humming and hawing and "probably"s. I recall Kirby once making light of it being called the "Kirby" proposal and backing away from it.

I scrutinize the negotiating reports pretty good and seems that very little progress is being made and USAPA is not always the cause. Take a look at the last proposal the company made on age 60 F/Os. Pretty much says it all, doesn't it?

I would sum up USAPAs performance so far as amateurish. Plenty of blame to go around. That all being said, IMO, I don't believe the company would buy off on the Kirby proposal and the NIC if it were offered to them tomorrow. There is no hurry for them...there is no urgency. No reason for them to get in a hurry to spend $80+ million bucks a year they don't absolutly have to.

That is my opinion...

Driver B)

 

[Metroyet]

I see Beavis and butthead AKA Cleary and Kubrik (sp?) Have been busy bombarding the BOD with more hyper hyperbolic useless Horsesh**. They apparently are immune to embarrassment. Either that, or they're too stupid to realize what their doing.

 

[crazystnic]

We love you guys giving your money to Lee. Hopefully those percentages will keep getting higher.

I plan on giving to Leonidas as long as takes to keep DOH off this property.

I'm satisified with the result thus far.

*************************
glad you are satisfied and I am as well.
upgrades will equal the pay raises on the EAST... 40 % pay raise coming to many on the EAST soon.

keep the donations coming.

 

[767one]

Is it truth or fiction that Management has claimed in multiple venues that the Kirby Proposal is still on the table? In your opinion, what do you think Management would do is USAPA accepted the NIC and the Kirby proposal tomorrow?

Callaway,

I suspect that the company would immediately retract the Kirby proposal and offer us a concessionary proposal that will make LOA 93 look like a good deal. I think we we see the company ready to come to the table IF they get near a transaction, or the next bk filing, or if the operation gets so bad management loses their bonuses.
Regards,

Bob

 

[crazystnic]

The KIRBY proposal will never be voted on because it's a piece of crap.

Not even close to what will be required to get a deal done.

 

[crazystnic]

Callaway,

I suspect that the company would immediately retract the Kirby proposal and offer us a concessionary proposal that will make LOA 93 look like a good deal. If we sign the concessionary contract they probably accecpt the nic.

Regards,

Bob

**********************

I agree with you Bob, the constant moving target.. Just like the negotiations...
the idea is to frustrate and keep your opponent off guard...

this is a marathon... Those who want it more will get the best deal.

 

[767one]

Because it needs to be done. Because it’s the right thing to do. Because no one would choose to perpetuate interminable separate ops and separate contracts when a solution can be gained at the bargaining table. Because they have told the courts and the NMB that the Kirby proposal was still a valid offer. Because they think it is a valid and fair offer for a JCBA. Because the east temper tantrum has already saved them hundreds of millions of dollars since 2007. Because they would rather find a peaceful equilibrium than to be in federal court suing a labor union that is completely detached from reality.

Here are some questions for you. Why does Management give raises and bonuses to non-contract employees when they are under no obligation to do so? Why do they give employees Triple Play bonuses for good DOT performance? Why do they give A&B awards every quarter? Why do they have a Chairman’s Award program? None of these are contractually required and they all cost the company money that they would otherwise not spend if they actually hated employees as so many seem to suggest.

Callaway,

This company does not do anything because it is the right thing to do. They do whatever they do to line their pockets with cash. The programs of which you speak are peanuts

 

[CallawayGolf]

I see a lot of inconsistency in today's posts. First I’m identified as a “management type” and then it’s claimed that I don’t know what I’m talking about regarding the Kirby still being a valid offer by Management. Wouldn’t a management type know that the Kirby proposal had been rescinded if that was in fact the case? I don’t know either way, but I do know that a Company representative testified in the Addington trial that the Kirby was still a valid offer. I also recall the same basic answer being given at one or more crew news sessions or SOTA meetings. After that you expect me to believe that Management would go to the mediator and state that they are no longer willing to offer the pilots the same offer that was made in 2007? If you can’t produce a document or a reference that states that the Kirby proposal has been rescinded then you aren’t providing any facts or logic that would support your claim. Has somebody been spiking the USAPA Kool-Aid?

 

[767one]

Because they have changed their bonus program from one tied to profits to one tied to performance. Do the math. They do hate us and they prove it EVERY day. They just need us to funnel the money into their pockets.

The "right thing to do"??? Don't make me throw up.

Driver <_<

Dirver,

Right on the money with that post. Whatever they do it is always about the money......period!

Regards,

Bob

 

[767one]

I see a lot of inconsistency in today's posts. First I’m identified as a “management type” and then it’s claimed that I don’t know what I’m talking about regarding the Kirby still being a valid offer by Management. Wouldn’t a management type know that the Kirby proposal had been rescinded if that was in fact the case? I don’t know either way, but I do know that a Company representative testified in the Addington trial that the Kirby was still a valid offer. I also recall the same basic answer being given at one or more crew news sessions or SOTA meetings. After that you expect me to believe that Management would go to the mediator and state that they are no longer willing to offer the pilots the same offer that was made in 2007? If you can’t produce a document or a reference that states that the Kirby proposal has been rescinded then you aren’t providing any facts or logic that would support your claim. Has somebody been spiking the USAPA Kool-Aid?

Callaway,

I think the Kirby proposal might still be out there but I also think if the pilots accepted it the company would immediately change their minds. It is what they do.

Regards,


Bob

 

[Sadstateofaffairs]

You know I am not the sharpest tool in the shed but if the company was smart they would have set up the Kirby Proposal that pay rates would have been based on LOS and not equipment. It would improve on the west vacation & reserve policy , it would have maintained red flag trips at time & a half. Now that I think about it, it isn't the east's fault that there isn't a contract that we all can agree upon (even with the Nic) it's managements. Trust me when the company wants a contract (even with the Nic) if they throw enough our way they will get it. The Kirby Proposal as is isn't it though. The Nic is a huge pill for the East to swallow; till the company starts seriously negotiating I am very happy with separate operations. The company is playing both of us. They don't want a contract and instead of blaming them we are blaming each other. It looks like the East has reached the tipping point; are you gentlemen & ladies in the West going to join us or let the company keep playing this strategy?

Sad

 

[tripod727]

he gives me a crisp $10 bill for putting a nice shine on his club

sorry, i just thought that was funny