US Pilots Labor Discussion

[767one]

I didn't take it as such. Pilots on both sides are frustrated and I understand that. I'm not sure lobbing grenades gives anything more than a little instant gratification. In the long run, it just ends up pissing people off and irrational lashing out often create irrational responses. It's safe to say we are both interested in each other perspective but very comfortable in our own opinions. I think you and I could have this same discussion over a beer and still walk away with a hand shake.


I can't foresee what would have occurred if the "joint ratification" concept remained in play. Under the current representation, the West is going to be told what is in their best interests and provided for as East pilots see fit. I'm sure you can understand why the concept doesn't put west pilots at ease. We really are deadlocked by our own different experiences and as such, it's hard to see both sides coming to a mutually agreed on solution. Unfortunately, the provision of a "neutral" is gone. As far as the 500+ widebody protections, I still don't see it as unreasonable. The East had 500 pilots (CA + FO) needed to keep the existing fleet in the air. Had additional airframes been added, obviously additional positions would have been needed and any pilot, East or West could bid on them as their seniority holds. I didn't think fencing PHX was reasonable because the goal is to get these groups together, not to allow them to remain independent factions. PHX, PHL, CLT, etc...they're just bases. Bid what your seniority can hold. While many East pilots take the Nic as a complete insult, it's worth reading because it explains how he came up with 517 and no fences (besides the 5 yr wide body with an age 65 provision).



I disagree with your assessment of USAir being the same company. For better or worse, it isn't. But let me tell you, it isn't America West either. It's something in between and more often than not (in my opinion) they took the worst of each. The Trans-Atlantic, and many other East assets, have tremendous value and that's why the merger came about in the first place. If liquidated, the parts would have been worth far more than anyone was will to pay for the whole. Sadly, the company (*again, in my opinion) was so badly managed that even with the positives, the end was near. You can't argue the Merger brought a resurgence to the company. Say the East had 200 A/C and the West had 100. A furloughed pilot would be able to come back and enjoy the benefit of a company that had increased by 50% while being senior to what, more than 60% of the West pilots? So the negotiators came to Nic with DOH as an opener. He tried to work with both groups and the East softened to what? DOH. They didn't want to come to a middle ground. They CHOSE not to seek an alternative. If so, at Nic's request they could have come up with SOMETHING besides, "nope, we are only authorized to ask for DOH". Again, if you feel the decision more closely represented the West's position and thus the West "won", then I wish our negotiators would have said, "A staple for the East is all we are authorized". Maybe then people would see the Nic as the middle ground that it really is. And the furloughees...I wish someone could explain how what happened was anything but a transfer of furloughs from the East to the West. I spoke about my opinion of the value of what they brought to the merger in my last writing.


LOA 93 sucks, but that occurred when? So why should the West pilots have to make up for the issues that occurred the merger was even a gleam in Parker's eye? And yes, Nic used the list from '05 because that's when the merger was announced. How many west pilots were hired after the announcement in '05? Very few. Where THEY figured into Nic's plan? Below the active pilots at the announcement of the merger.



Ferris immediately bidding over to spend his final years as a senior 330 pilot isn't reasonable because doing so would have kept an senior East pilot from being able to do so. The immediate effects of integration are easier to see than the distant ones. Should a guy who expected to upgrade this month be able to exercise that expectation? Yes, I think that's reasonable. Should a pilot who expects to be a senior widebody Captain in 25 years be guaranteed the fruition of those expectations, I say no. You keep looking at pilots based on where they are TODAY versus their Nic equivalent. You need to look where they were at the time of the announcement of the merger. Very close to the guy on the other side who had the seniority bidding power within the respective company. Since then, the decision was made to stop growth on the West. We stopped hiring but the East didn't. And where was today's bottom 737 Captain at the time of the merger announcement? Probably in pretty poor bidding shape. Since the merger his career has been put back into gear and he has progressed forward up the list to a Captain's position. The West pilot next to him on the Nic is probably bidding a LOWER percentage than he/she was in '05 but that's because management CHOSE to stop movement on the West. I still suspect that was with the input of Bular and Hogge, two guys who would have been advantaged by that decision (PURELY speculation on my part).

I don't swallow the idea that while imperfect, people should just accept USAPA is what it is because it was started by guys who wanted DOH or death and now that's just the way it is. Pi, USAPA is YOUR union. It represents YOUR pilots. If as group you don't agree with what they are doing then force them to change. If you don't, then it means they represent the opinions of the (majority of) East pilots. While I may be forced to pay 1.95% of my pay to USAPA, in no way do they represent MY interests nor do they even try to pretend to. For example, they have refused to arbitrate a single West grievance for 3 years (and counting). The USAPA leadership comes to East crew rooms and seeks your input. When two members of the leadership choose to come to a West domicile meeting, they were forced by Cleary to leave before the meeting began. Why? No reason is acceptable. Would the same thing happen in PHL? A West vote for ALPA guaranteed someone would sit at the table and represent the East through this process. An East vote for USAPA guaranteed there would be no one representing the West. Truthfully, that is why I have no respect for USAPA and only consider it a Union in the most general sense of the word.

Way past bed time and I still need to proofread before shutting off the light. Like you, I recognize I'm not changing your opinion of the Nic or events that have or are occurring but I really do enjoy this exchanges and respect the fact your willing to discuss our differences.

It is really refreshing to see an adult conversation on this board and this is way to eventually get things done. We may never totally change each others point of view but it is a step in the right direction.

Regards,

Bob

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Promises promises. Or should I say pro-misses, and more misses. Come on MM give us a time line. You have been threatening an un merger for months now. Where is it?????? Who is it?????

Ready to go back to ALPA????? Ready to be the minority????? The big boy legacy carriers are going to love you guys.

DEADWEIGHT your hub is just deadweight! MM! Just like your rhetoric!

 

[crazystnic]

It's be nice if more people learned how to read the opening pages of the bid packet. There are ~ 40 captain openings. Start with 49 additional reserves minus 14 less blockholders for 35 (that's from the net gain/loss chart based on staffing needs). Next look at the headcount chart which shows a net loss of 5 captains. That takes you to the ~40 vacancies. I use the 'approximatley' symbol because the numbers in the head count, except age 65 retirements, terminations or deaths, were accurate when the bid packet was put together but the actual number won't be known till the bid is closed. Someone may go out on or come back from medical between the two events. Somebody may go to or return from supervisory. The 2 early retirements contractually can change their minds up until July 1, so theoretically result in overstaffing in their base/equpment till the next bid. Somebody else may decide to retire early. Hopefully not, but someone could die or be terminated. The bid packet is a snapshop at 1 particular time - when it was put together so the numbers can change before the bid closing. It's like taking a picture of your front yard and taking another 2 weeks later. There's a chance that there will be some difference between the two pictures.

Jim

******************

Oh masterful one... .... It would be nice if they modified the bid and information to make it understandable ... How many years have they used this format? It sucks!

If all the students get the answer wrong, then maybe it's the teacher.

 

[cleardirect]

DEADWEIGHT your hub is just deadweight! MM! Just like your rhetoric!

I did not say anything about hubs. I asked specific questions. How about you stick to the subject.

Answer the questions about your unmerger or STFU!!!

I am tired of hearing you whine about something that is not going to happen.

 

[Metroyet]

I just got home from flying for 7 days of Intl trips. Checking my mail, I received two full copies of my credit report, one from Experian and one from TransUnion, WHICH I DID NOT ORDER!!! Heads are gonna roll!

breeze

Ha!!! Right. Heads are going to roll...when will that be? Uh. Never?

 

[luvthe9]

Yeah the lawman is slow but the company didn't take anytime in ponying up the dough to pay for all those LifeLock subscriptions. If this really was "much ado about nothing" then I can't imagine why the company was so quick to shell out money to aid in our protection of information that was never released.

On top of that they spent so far up to 4 million on an outside law firm for their defence, They did not give us Lifelock out of the goodness of thieir heart they were required to by law!!!

 

[USA320Pilot]

US Airways Setting Industry Standard for B737 Maintenance

See Story

 

[cleardirect]

On top of that they spent so far up to 4 million on an outside law firm for their defence, They did not give us Lifelock out of the goodness of thieir heart they were required to by law!!!

Really!! 4 million. How is it that you would know that figure? Cleary tell you that?

 

[fodase]

Half of the clowns haven't signed up for lifelock, the NC attorney general told lee seeham to take a hike and the AZ attorney general told him to call the cops. The FBI? says no crime has been committed and won't investigate further . So what are the biggest clowns in the industry to do? I guess we have to wait till the circus comes to town.idiots.

 

[doh nogo]

US Airways Setting Industry Standard for B737 Maintenance

See Story

Seems like more of the same embarrassingly stupid union behavior. USAPA screams and stomps their feet, then the facts show them completely off in outer space. So in this case they cry wolf about "dangerous" 737, to a management who is actually setting the "benchmark" for inspections of those said aircraft. Brilliant!

 

[doh nogo]

Half of the clowns haven't signed up for lifelock, the NC attorney general told lee seeham to take a hike and the AZ attorney general told him to call the cops. The FBI? says no crime has been committed and won't investigate further . So what are the biggest clowns in the industry to do? I guess we have to wait till the circus comes to town.idiots.

Funny how after all the hysteria, false accusations, calls for terminations and rolling heads, rhetoric, lies, and endless blabber on this forum by the likes of Black Swan, luvthe9, hate, sumadarson, and others on the alleged identity theft, things have suddenly become quiet on the subject now that the irrelevant usapians realize that no one of importance is buying their bull**it.

Now they're on to their next distraction of choice... false accusations of safety issues.

Do they realize we are having the last laugh as usual. I've never seen such a bunch of emotional amateurs outside of a 5th grade classroom.

 

[fodase]

The best part is that some of the clowns actually took the unions advice and hired lawyers to investigate, one spent over $600 and was told nothing could be done because a crime didn't occur, Clowns.

 

[luvn737s]

"Your" hubs - BAD "Our hubs - "GOOD" There is no "yours " or "ours". Both sides' aircraft transit all hubs with both connecting and O&D traffic. Pretending otherwise is childish and ignorant.

 

[sumadarson]

"Your" hubs - BAD "Our hubs - "GOOD" There is no "yours " or "ours". Both sides' aircraft transit all hubs with both connecting and O&D traffic. Pretending otherwise is childish and ignorant.

america west brought nothing to the merger. You are pretending you are a real pilot and pretending you used to work for a real airline.

Read you scope protection in the event of the almost certain near future company transaction.

 

[East Hole]

"Your" hubs - BAD "Our hubs - "GOOD" There is no "yours " or "ours". Both sides' aircraft transit all hubs with both connecting and O&D traffic. Pretending otherwise is childish and ignorant.

Your are correct since the west is flying 24% of the east original flying.