US Pilots Labor Discussion

[767jetz]

Jetz,

The seniority dispute simply no longer has much importance.

Until the courts decide that final and binding arbitration can not be disregarded at the union's whim. I do agree that until something new emerges from the courts (and it will eventually), discussing the same talking points is of little importance.

It won't be easy or fast but the NMB has had a 100% success rate at achieving contract agreements and I would also put the odds at achieving contract improvements without using any part of the Nic award at 100%.

underpants

Well, the NMB has never had such a major court issue to contend with. They also have a 100% success rate because there comes a time when each side either comes to their senses or gets released to self help. In this case, no one will be release to self help IMO.

I believe your 100% odds of a contract without Nic is way off, but I respect your right to your opinion. IMO odds of a contract without the Nic is about 40%. But I also believe that if a contract without the Nic passes, there's a 99% chance it will be stopped dead in it's tracks by an injunction and DFR II.

 

[cleardirect]

Jetz,

The seniority dispute simply no longer has much importance. I can often fly for months without even hearing it discussed. Status quo with separate ops gives both sides their DOH and pre-merger relative positions and most are OK with that. There is just no reason to combine operations. Senior management told me directly they had no problem with separate ops and were planning to operate with the pilots separate for 10 years. They understand the seniority integration problem goes away anyway after 10 years. The courts are just an expensive distraction since they can't force integration or impose any particular seniority scheme without changing the contracts or illegally taking control of the company or union.

We do need an agreement with the company to allow more West pilots to transfer East so they can use their DOH to bid positions ahead of the East new hires. We also need contract improvements to bring all our pilots back up to an industry standard agreement. It won't be easy or fast but the NMB has had a 100% success rate at achieving contract agreements and I would also put the odds at achieving contract improvements without using any part of the Nic award at 100%.

underpants

Really? You go months without talking about it. Yet every time you come here that is what you talk about. I guess no one talks about when that new contract will show up either right. You can not have one without the other.

Credibility does how seems lacking in your statement.

Just for laughs let me ask you. When do you think the NMB will have their 100% success here at US Airways with usapa in charge?

 

[BoeingBoy]

Senior management told me directly they had no problem with separate ops and were planning to operate with the pilots separate for 10 years.

Ok Chip...


Jim

 

[700UW]

You must have missed this....I know the truth hurts: <_<

America West Airlines
COMPANY


Acquired US Airways in 2005 and assumed its identity.
Industry:
Airline

Ticker:
(defunct)

Corporate headquarters:
Phoenix, AZ


EXECUTIVES

Name Occupation Birth Death Known for
Richard R. Goodmanson Business 1947 COO of DuPont
Doug Parker Business c. 1962 CEO of US Airways


BOARD MEMBERS OR DIRECTORS

Name Occupation Birth Death Known for
Herbert M. Baum Business 6-Dec-1936 CEO of Dial Corporation, 2000-05
Cheryl Gordon Krongard Business c. 1956 Partner, Apollo Management, 2002-04


PAST BOARD MEMBERS OR DIRECTORS

Name Occupation Birth Death Known for
Stephen F. Bollenbach Business c. 1943 CEO of Hilton Hotels, 1996-2007
Matthew J. Hart Business c. 1953 CEO of Hilton Hotels
Marie L. Knowles Business c. 1947 CFO of ARCO, 1996-2000
Richard C. Kraemer Business c. 1944 President of UDC Homes, 1985-96
Bob Miller Politician 30-Mar-1945 Governor of Nevada, 1989-99
Denise M. O'Leary Business c. 1957 Former Partner, Menlo Ventures
Doug Parker Business c. 1962 CEO of US Airways
Raymond S. Troubh Business c. 1925 Independent Financial Consultant
J. Steven Whisler Business 23-Nov-1954 CEO of Phelps Dodge, 2000-07

Guess you didnt read this, now did you?

How US Airways/America West merger got off the groundRead more: http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05142/508153.stm#ixzz1Ih9KUC8u

 

[CallawayGolf]

Why (beyond pride) do the east employees have such a difficult time understanding the transaction that took place on 9/27/2005? It's not like the employees owned the airline and had to give up their stock to HP in the transaction. First off, read the SEC filings which state that the transaction was a "reverse acquisition" for accounting purposes. The rest of the transaction was treated as a merger of the two legacy companies.

Look at it this way. Who owns a corporation? The shareholders, at least for a solvent enterprise. An insolvent enterprise that goes into Chapter 11 is no longer "owned" by the shareholders whose stock effectively becomes worthless due to the insolvency. The unsecured creditors effectively take control of the company as those who now hold more claims against the assets of the corporation than any other group. So when US went into bankruptcy II the assets of the corporation were acquired by the creditors.

The creditors then sought to get the biggest return for their unsecured claims and entertained a proposal from the Barbell Acqusition Corporation which would exchange their unsecured claims for stock in a new entity. That new entity would fund the transaction that would provide a way for US to exit bankruptcy protection through an acquisition (reverse) by AWA Holdings. Thus the unsecured creditors acquired US in bankruptcy and then merged with HP stockholders into a new LCC corporation. The solvent stockholders of AWA Holdings acquired LCC stock as part of the same transaction thereby becoming the largest block of shareholders in LCC.

So the unsecured creditors and the shareholders of AWA most certainly acquired the assets of US via this transaction. Those stockholders who owned US prior to bankruptcy took precious little with them for their investment in the legacy airline known as US Airways other than perhaps a capital loss on their IRS-1040.

Those who owned the company left with nothing of value and those who now own the company invested their cash and stock to acquire the assets of the corporation. Sounds like an acquisition to me.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Guess you didnt read this, now did you?

700, you just can't comprehend that who raised the money from outside investors is irrelevant - It doesn't matter who Luth worked for, it matters what he was selling - a merged airline. Before the merger was agreed to neither Luth nor Lakefield had much luck raising the funds needed. $125 mil in DIP financing that was spent as fast as it came in and another $125 Mil promised by Republic IF US exited bankruptcy - and Republics money wasn't needed because of the money raised once there was a merger to sell.

In the end the AWH stockholders bought about 50% of the combined airline and some of the outside investors bought about 50% of the combined airline (both not counting LCC stock that went to management and the ATSB). How much of the combined airline did US or the US stockholders buy? None.

Jim

 

[700UW]

I guess some people cant understand, that US proposed, funded and raised the cash for the merger, not HP. It was a merger, not one company acquiring another.

 

[BoeingBoy]

I guess some people cant understand, that US proposed, funded and raised the cash for the merger, not HP. It was a merger, not one company acquiring another.

What did US use to fund the merger? They didn't have the cash and couldn't raise the cash till there was a potential merger to sell to outside investors. Cash that came in after the merger.

If I borrowed $20 from you and offered to take you to McDonalds for lunch, does that mean that I proposed and funded lunch and you owe me lunch in return?

Jim

 

[Pi brat]

700, you just can't comprehend that who raised the money from outside investors is irrelevant - It doesn't matter who Luth worked for, it matters what he was selling - a merged airline. Before the merger was agreed to neither Luth nor Lakefield had much luck raising the funds needed. $125 mil in DIP financing that was spent as fast as it came in and another $125 Mil promised by Republic IF US exited bankruptcy - and Republics money wasn't needed because of the money raised once there was a merger to sell.

In the end the AWH stockholders bought about 50% of the combined airline and some of the outside investors bought about 50% of the combined airline (both not counting LCC stock that went to management and the ATSB). How much of the combined airline did US or the US stockholders buy? None.

Jim

I will be the first to admit that you have more knowledge in these matters than I do, but I really don't understand the "In the end the AWH stockholders bought about 50% of the combined airline". They didn't really "buy" it did they? They received it? They bought their shares and were awarded a given amount of the new company, but they didn't contribute more to get the new company off the ground, right?

 

[CallawayGolf]

I guess some people cant understand, that US proposed, funded and raised the cash for the merger, not HP. It was a merger, not one company acquiring another.

I'm not denying the order of events or the capital provided by the outside investors was required for US to exit bankruptcy, but the assets of US were acquired by AWA via a reverse acquisition transaction as was reported to the SEC. That's exactly what the financial documents of the new corporation explicity state.

 

[700UW]

HP and AWH did not contribute any cash, it was funded by Lutz raising the money and US' ability to utilize the ATSB money, I guess you forgot that I was on the NC during this process.

 

[Pi brat]

If I borrowed $20 from you and offered to take you to McDonalds for lunch, does that mean that I proposed and funded lunch and you owe me lunch in return?

Jim

Well, if you didn't borrow the $20 for the recipient of the lunch, then yes, they owe you a lunch. In my book anyway. US didn't borrow the money from AWA, outside investors decided the NEW airline was worth the chance.

I doubt either would have gotten all the money absent the other.

 

[CactusPilot1]

I guess some people cant understand, that US proposed, funded and raised the cash for the merger, not HP. It was a merger, not one company acquiring another.

For the umpteenth time it was an ACQUISITION by America West Holdings. You can stomp your feet and stand in the corner for all I care with GI.

It won't change the fact that US Air is gone and LCC now resides in Tempe, AZ.

 

[700UW]

Please provide us with the proof that AWH raised and spent the money to by US then.

Oh wait you cant, because the facts are Lakefield approached DWI Doug and Seabury and Associates who was working for US Airways, not America West raised the money to fund a MERGER, do you know the difference between a merger and an acquisition?

US/HP, US/PI were mergers, AA/TWA was an acquisition.

 

[Pi brat]

Why (beyond pride) do the east employees have such a difficult time understanding the transaction that took place on 9/27/2005? It's not like the employees owned the airline and had to give up their stock to HP in the transaction. First off, read the SEC filings which state that the transaction was a "reverse acquisition" for accounting purposes. The rest of the transaction was treated as a merger of the two legacy companies.

Look at it this way. Who owns a corporation? The shareholders, at least for a solvent enterprise. An insolvent enterprise that goes into Chapter 11 is no longer "owned" by the shareholders whose stock effectively becomes worthless due to the insolvency. The unsecured creditors effectively take control of the company as those who now hold more claims against the assets of the corporation than any other group. So when US went into bankruptcy II the assets of the corporation were acquired by the creditors.

The creditors then sought to get the biggest return for their unsecured claims and entertained a proposal from the Barbell Acqusition Corporation which would exchange their unsecured claims for stock in a new entity. That new entity would fund the transaction that would provide a way for US to exit bankruptcy protection through an acquisition (reverse) by AWA Holdings. Thus the unsecured creditors acquired US in bankruptcy and then merged with HP stockholders into a new LCC corporation. The solvent stockholders of AWA Holdings acquired LCC stock as part of the same transaction thereby becoming the largest block of shareholders in LCC.

So the unsecured creditors and the shareholders of AWA most certainly acquired the assets of US via this transaction. Those stockholders who owned US prior to bankruptcy took precious little with them for their investment in the legacy airline known as US Airways other than perhaps a capital loss on their IRS-1040.

Those who owned the company left with nothing of value and those who now own the company invested their cash and stock to acquire the assets of the corporation. Sounds like an acquisition to me.

CG,

I have always believed it was an acquisition of US by AWA, but funded by outside interests because neither could raise the money on their own. I think the problem most of us have is the attitude that the east was "saved" and thus we owe something to the west. I believe you have to look at the whole package. We both needed something, maybe not in equal measure, and the merger brought that to ALL of us and in the last few years the east part of this equation has proved to be pretty valuable.