US Pilots Labor Discussion

[RSVP767]

There is really no reason to discuss alternative methods of integration, as the Nic is the only accepted system seniority list at LCC, and will be the only list implemented in a joint contract. However, I would like to point out the fundemental flaw in your scenario.

First, you are still looking at it as though I am being added to the east list. Lets talk about what my position was. Is it merely the seat I was in at the time of the merger, or was it my status and ranking within the West pilot group, and my future potential ("career expectation") with the airline? You are saying, it was my A320 captin seat, which you are willing to make provisions to help me keep, as long as east furloughees can have my position, status and ranking. Your scenario absolutely strips me of any upward mobility for the remainder of my carrer, as I could not hold that same a320 lineholding captain seat for another 10 years, while the former east pilots enjoy their new found windfall rakning within the company puts them on the fast track to career advancement.

Now the east arguement that the Nic does the same in reverse is pure horse manure. Everybody keeps their relative pre-merger position, status and ranking. The east's own specialist said that career advancement on the east would be delayed by as much as two years vs. stand alone. But the problem is, you did not stand alone, and the West was not being added to your stand alone list. Is two years a lot, considering many on the east were closing in faster on retirement? Perhaps, but Nic could not use age as a criteria, as there are age discrimination laws in this country that would have made that pretty unseemly. So, everybody gets to share the newly formed combined advancement equally, with an edge given to the east by Nic giving you guys the top 517. The Nic is fair, perhaps overly simple, and most importantly the result of binding arbitration.

I pick on Theur a lot in this thread. The reason is he gave an interview in a USA Today article when the merger went down. The whole premise of his interview was that now it was his turn to leepfrog forward, as the merger would supply this large group of people who would come in under him. Absolutely out of touch with the term "career expectation".

Are you kidding me! How can you see clearly with that speck in your eye.

When I started to read your post, I thought to myself that all the points you make in the second paragraph hold just as true to the East under NIC. Nic strips the East of their upward mobility.....but of course you can't see that with that big speck in your eye. And how convenient for you that old George did not (or could not as you put it) consider age....which in and of itself was discriminatory to the older East pilots.

And for Zone5, if you read this......After reading a few of your recent posts (which I agree with most) I was going to reply that there is no negotiating with the West. The West firmly believes the NIC is it and they have no reason to revisit or negotiate with the East on this matter. They have the Lottery Ticket! The first line of the post above by nic4us confirms their view. However as we all know, they are having some real trouble trying to cash that ticket. In the end we will see what the courts decide as you have said.

So far, NIC has done nada for the West.......and this will continue for the forseeable future.

 

[nycbusdriver]

A delusional Eastie talking about proof. Classic.

Read Johnson's letter. After that, read what comes out of the investigation. And after all that, you'll still be saying something asinine (which means stupid) like, "The West got away with (fill in blank) but we know the truth!" You USAPAians are truly men of genius.

Well, I suppose genius is probably a true statement. We have kept your precious final-and-binding list at bay for about 4 years now, with no end in sight.

And we have been able to keep you emptying your wallets, with no end in sight, while you help to pay for USAPA's defense.

I wouldn't necessarily characterize it as genius myself. More of a master stroke...while you westies are stroking yourselves. (it does feel good, though, doesn't it?)

 

[aquagreen73s]

But, how will you feel if Kasher upsets your smug attitude by giving the east pilots LOA 84 pay, while the rest of LOA 93 stays in effect?

It didn't happen. (Notice the tense.) Ask Cleary. He knows. The problem is that he won't be straight forward with you.

 

[RSVP767]

What are you talking about? 15 years? I thought all the east would be long retired by then and the West pilots other than myself (cause I will be retired) could inherit the airline.

Post the graph the east came up with showing the movement. It is actually a good supplement to the graphs AOL made. It shows that the east pilots retain their advancing position and status throughout the remainder of their career just like the West pilots do.

PS. it is not hard to extrapolate the DOH graph that puts 85% of the West at the bottom. The West stays at the bottom in 5, 10, 15 years.

I'll still be here. With 700 of the 1800 West guys left still ahead of me.......ensuring I will not enjoy the seniority I would have had absent the NIC.

 

[GuntherA320]

As BB has point out so well, the West has gotten the short end of this merger stick. The East has recalled all of their furloughs, hired off the street, added a handful of 330s. The West entered the merger with 144 airplanes and we've given up 20+ airframes. Not coincidentally, Parker has been stacking the "New US Airways" with old US Airways management. You guys have gotten everything in this merger, but then you want to steal our captain upgrades. Forget it. The West has suffered all the harm they are going to suffer. Separate ops with the East now paying back under LOA93 is perfectly fine with us. Nicolau nailed the ratios and under the current scenario, the West will be upgrading at the same pace as under Nicolau. The only difference is for the few dozen of West pilots living East of the Mississippi who probably would have taken an East domicile upgrade. It's not the ideal for them, but for the rest of us, commuting to Phoenix or living in Phoenix is far better than commuting to DCA in the dead of winter. Read the transcripts. Nicolau nailed the ratios.

P.S. See what' going on in Europe? How's that going to impact East/West going forward? Hmmmm.

That short end of the merger stick of yours is going to get shorter and shorter every year. I'm glad to hear you don't mind seperate ops.....we don't mind either. I guess Parker won't put those 6 A330's on the east in two years since you threw a temper tantrum......How about the 22 A350's that start coming in 2017? I'm sure those will go to PHX. Let me know when those 6 year upgrades start again on the west.

 

[RSVP767]

I'm talking about MAINTAINING your pre-merger career expectations, until such time as your system-wide seniority, post-merger, would allow you to reap the benefits of a position on equipment, that sans-merger, you had no expectation to ever have.

How does that "hurt" you?

seajay

It hurt's him because uner NIC he got more!

 

[BoeingBoy]

Any methodology will invariably have "unintended consequences", that's what LOA's are for. For instance, if the Kagel fence was intended to protect the relatively junior South from the more senior North, it had just the opposite effect for me, more senior PI F/O's were precluded from displacing me out of my block, position and base.

seajay

That was my point - C&R's with the best intentions can end up hurting the very ones they're intended to protect and protect the ones that supposedly don't need the protection (I know that the '89 newhires were hired by the North so had all the PI people ahead of them.

My philosophy is that the fewer the C&R's the better - less room for those unintended consequences. Nobody knows what the future of US will hold, or even for sure what would have happened if the merger hadn't happened. Like Parker's saying that all new flying will be international - if there had been no merger would PHX have gotten more international flying while CLT/PHL stagnated internationally?

It's easy to look at 5 years of merged history and assume the same would have happened without a merger, but nobody really knows. But trying to use post-merger events to justify either sides expectations is a reach. In a merged airline, everyone should share in movement both ways - up or down. Doing other than that is like telling people in PIT about 1999 that they can have the jobs in PIT but can't exercise their "old" seniority but only a new, lower seniority can allow them to hold.

Relative seniority fixes that - a person's seniority prior to the merger is the same as their seniority after the merger. Everybody moves up or down based on post-merger events. In other words, that PIT A320 captain still has the seniority to hold that job in CLT or PIT. Anything else penalizes or awards someone due to where they're based. You wouldn't want that at the old US, so why is it ok at LCC?

Jim

 

[N924PS]

Pretty amazing when you think about it. All Current east F/O's will be able to hold an A320 captain position in the next 3 to 6 years. New hires today will have 6 year upgrades on the east. Current A320 captains will be able to hold widebody captain in the next 2 to 7 years.

There simply isn't that much attrition in the next 3 to 6 years that would bring this to fruition.

Wishful thinking, kind of like that first day in ground school when they told you "Captain in 4 Years". True for the West and some Piedmont pilots, but a fantasy for the rest of us.

 

[luvthe9]

Talk about the scum of corporate america, you would think the board of directors at our company would have ousted Parker and Kirby by now, first his DUI's brought public shame to this company and now this stolen information fiasco, in which he turned his back upon. It makes me sick to think they are all in bed together, no wonder this company is in the shape that it is.

 

[traderjake]

Well, I suppose genius is probably a true statement. We have kept your precious final-and-binding list at bay for about 4 years now, with no end in sight.

Still making LOA 93 wages, yes, we are real men of genius.

 

[GuntherA320]

There simply isn't that much attrition in the next 3 to 6 years that would bring this to fruition.

Wishful thinking, kind of like that first day in ground school when they told you "Captain in 4 Years". True for the West and some Piedmont pilots, but a fantasy for the rest of us.

Just because you won't be here in 2 years doesn't make it not true. I was never told 4 years to Captain in ground school......all you have to do is add up the MANDATORY retirements. In 3 years there will be roughly 375 mandatory retirements.....in 6 years there will be almost 1200 mandatory retirements. In 10 years more than 2200. I know it's been a long time since you were in school but it really is simple math.

 

[luvthe9]

Still making LOA 93 wages, yes, we are real men of genius.

It does suck but I'm sure you and your ALPA buddies voted for it, right? Don't blame USAPA for it.

 

[N924PS]

Just because you won't be here in 2 years doesn't make it not true. I was never told 4 years to Captain in ground school......all you have to do is add up the MANDATORY retirements. In 3 years there will be roughly 375 mandatory retirements.....in 6 years there will be almost 1200 mandatory retirements. In 10 years more than 2200. I know it's been a long time since you were in school but it really is simple math.

How many of these Age 65 retirements are F/O's?

There's more to it than simply math, and you know it.

 

[GuntherA320]

How many of these Age 65 retirements are F/O's?

There's more to it than simply math, and you know it.

Less than 10% are retiring from the right seat smarty pants (they are retiring from right seat because of quality of life.....not because they can't hold a captain position)....and they are retiring from Widebody right seat......not narrowbody. If you're using an abacus......then yes....there is more to it.


I have it in spreadsheet format if you would like to examine the data.

 

[traderjake]

Don't blame USAPA for it.

You said we're not going to get a contract until Doug wants to give us one.

I guess your right about that.

USAPA has no say in the matter.