US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Sadstateofaffairs]

That would be a big loss, but what I have to ask is are you certain there is that difference? Are you close to holding that position now, or are you speculating about something 10-15 years down the road? Remember, (if you are close now) that the West does have attrition also, and it is much more heavily weighted at the top than the east's attrition. when we retire say 50 in a year, 35-40 of them come out of the top 100, so almost everybody moves up.

My point being, if you are close to holding that now, you are still going to get it. If you are forecasting out 15 years, you are making assumptions that are likely not valid.

Also, from a West perspective, the only widebody that pays more is the 330. The east brought 9 to the merger. We are now at 14 or 16 or something like that, which means there are 7 you did not bring to the merger. Further, the merger put us in the position of being the launch customer for the A350, and you did not bring those seats either. So I have a hard time giving you any exclusive rights to something you actually did not bring.

That is why I specifically said "brought to the merger" not just the 9 330s but the 767 too. I am 56 years old I am a hundred or so # from holding the 767 (I might add a $30/hour raise from the east perspective) if the Nic was instituted today I would lose over 500 numbers (the vast majority of those people being younger than I am) These #'s are guesstimates. There use to be a excel spreadsheet floating around that was more specific but I can not seem to find it anymore. My point in all this is to try to explain how much the Nic hurts some of us. Look I agree the Nic is the list; we agreed to binding arbrition and we are stuck with it once we approve a joint contract. However, there is nothing on the table yet that wants me to tell the union send this out for a vote. The company could have a contract with the Nic in it tomorrow all they would have to do is make their offer positive enough that it outweighs the negatives of the Nic. Don't see that happening anytime soon.

Sad

 

[Sadstateofaffairs]

That is why I specifically said "brought to the merger" not just the 9 330s but the 767 too. I am 56 years old I am a hundred or so # from holding the 767 (I might add a $30/hour raise from the east perspective) if the Nic was instituted today I would lose over 500 numbers (the vast majority of those people being younger than I am) These #'s are guesstimates. There use to be a excel spreadsheet floating around that was more specific but I can not seem to find it anymore. My point in all this is to try to explain how much the Nic hurts some of us. Look I agree the Nic is the list; we agreed to binding arbrition and we are stuck with it once we approve a joint contract. However, there is nothing on the table yet that wants me to tell the union send this out for a vote. The company could have a contract with the Nic in it tomorrow all they would have to do is make their offer positive enough that it outweighs the negatives of the Nic. Don't see that happening anytime soon.

Sad

Pretty sad when you reply to your own posts :blink: Let me tell you what my east colleagues would say about my post above (especially the ones who don't agree that binding is binding). A contract is only good till the next merger, force majeure, or if your lucky, your next contract; but the Nic reshuffling of the seniority list is forever. And that is why the company would have to spend a huge amount of money to get a contract with the Nic

Sad

 

[CactusPilot1]

Good idea. Please elaborate on some of the highlights for those of us who haven't seen it.

I have not seen anything but brochure 1 and 2 on cactuspilot.com

I'd like info myself.

 

[aquagreen73s]

Ok. I guess all I have to say is enjoy LOA93 because that's what USAPA has gotten you: the all-or-nothing. The company sure as heck isnt' going to deal on seniority. Don't believe me? Read Bob Siegel's statements to Judge Silver. Parker knows he can wait this out and with the economy heading south in quite a hurry, it's probably prudent from a financial standpoint to keep the status quo.

 

[Sadstateofaffairs]

Ok. I guess all I have to say is enjoy LOA93 because that's what USAPA has gotten you: the all-or-nothing. The company sure as heck isnt' going to deal on seniority. Don't believe me? Read Bob Siegel's statements to Judge Silver. Parker knows he can wait this out and with the economy heading south in quite a hurry, it's probably prudent from a financial standpoint to keep the status quo.

I didn't say anything about the company dealing on seniority. I specifically said the Nic is the list. Maybe you were not replying to me. If so sorry. I have no problem with LOA 93 (I wouldn't say I enjoy it). I can wait and see how this plays out with the courts and the arbitrator. Who knows if the "hale marry" goes our favor I don't ever see us voting in a joint contract with the Nic (or at least not till a bunch of us retire). I think you (not you specifically) feel we are all living under a hardship with LOA 93. Love to make more but the bills get paid, I just got a nice raise and if the Nic isn't implemented I will get another hefty raise in 12-18 months. I still don't understand why the west doesn't come together with us and really push the company for a good contract even if it doesn't include the Nic. Once it is in place DFR II will be ripe. Sue away. You'll have a better contract and the potential of over turning the seniority portion of the new agreement back to the Nic. Might even speed things up. Don't worry I know that isn't going to happen. We are just going to have to wait and let the courts sort this out.

Sad

 

[aquagreen73s]

The lion's share of a joint contract goes East. Nicolau is the compromise, and you're asking the West to allow you to reap the vast majority of the money on the table, disregard the arbitration and allow you to cement DOH, and then have us pay for a DFR and try to undo that which we helped you get. Do you see how that makes absolutely no sense for the West?

No. Nic is the compromise. If it takes another ten years, then so be it.

 

[East Hole]

That would be a big loss, but what I have to ask is are you certain there is that difference? Are you close to holding that position now, or are you speculating about something 10-15 years down the road? Remember, (if you are close now) that the West does have attrition also, and it is much more heavily weighted at the top than the east's attrition. when we retire say 50 in a year, 35-40 of them come out of the top 100, so almost everybody moves up.

My point being, if you are close to holding that now, you are still going to get it. If you are forecasting out 15 years, you are making assumptions that are likely not valid.

Also, from a West perspective, the only widebody that pays more is the 330. The east brought 9 to the merger. We are now at 14 or 16 or something like that, which means there are 7 you did not bring to the merger. Further, the merger put us in the position of being the launch customer for the A350, and you did not bring those seats either. So I have a hard time giving you any exclusive rights to something you actually did not bring.

You r so right A@W brought so much to this merger. Those huge money making hubs out west and the future of tremendous growth there I am so impressed.. Screw those east pilots they brought nothing to this merger. Their huge pay cuts had nothing to do with this merger or the possibility of turning this thing around. I say those A@W new hires at the time of the merger should go in front of a 17 year east pilot who was never laid off because those A@W new hires worked so hard for this and you know they brought so much to this merger. It all makes sense to me....Let them upgrade and get into widebodies first. I am guessing A@W was going to get a bunch of widebodies anyway and fly all over the globe out of PHX .

 

[BoeingBoy]

A "Kagelish" fence between East and West could be erected, attrition is going to happen and until then, protections to "keep what you brought" or better if you can hold it, until time makes it no longer necessary, is doable.

There will always be uncertainty in life and no system can possibly predict all of the potential events which will occur. One thing is certain and will effect everyone and everything across the board.........the march of time!

seajay

I guess the question is whether it's so important to have DOH with C&R's that don't let one exercise whatever seniority they have because the C&R's to protect the West are so complex or start with a system that lets everyone keep "what they brought to the table."

Take your EW fence - if most of the new flying is on the East how does that either protect the west from shrinkage/furlough or let them exercise their seniority? A fence is attractive to the people on one side when most of the benefits of the merger are going to that side. Just like when you were in PHL confident that no one from the other side could displace you, the folks on the other side saw most of their bases and one hub close and were all moving backwards - because of a C&R meant to protect the South from the more senior North.

The law of unintended consequences hasn't been repealed, so any C&R's will have the problem of not forecasting something.

Jim

 

[Barrister]

You r so right A@W brought so much to this merger. Those huge money making hubs out west and the future of tremendous growth there I am so impressed.. Screw those east pilots they brought nothing to this merger. Their huge pay cuts had nothing to do with this merger or the possibility of turning this thing around. I say those A@W new hires at the time of the merger should go in front of a 17 year east pilot who was never laid off because those A@W new hires worked so hard for this and you know they brought so much to this merger. It all makes sense to me....Let them upgrade and get into widebodies first. I am guessing A@W was going to get a bunch of widebodies anyway and fly all over the globe out of PHX .
[/quote

You are arguing with a new hire who could not hold a daytime tug driving shift out east who NIC probably
put above you...

NICDOA
NPJB

 

[Sadstateofaffairs]

The lion's share of a joint contract goes East. Nicolau is the compromise, and you're asking the West to allow you to reap the vast majority of the money on the table, disregard the arbitration and allow you to cement DOH, and then have us pay for a DFR and try to undo that which we helped you get. Do you see how that makes absolutely no sense for the West?

No. Nic is the compromise. If it takes another ten years, then so be it.

Actually I do. Sorry for being naive.

Sad

 

[Sadstateofaffairs]

Double post

 

[aquagreen73s]

Actually I do. Sorry for being naive.

Sad

Well that's good I suppose. It's down to Nic and a joint contract or status quo until there is enough new blood in this company to move forward.

 

[Barrister]

I guess the question is whether it's so important to have DOH with C&R's that don't let one exercise whatever seniority they have because the C&R's to protect the West are so complex or start with a system that lets everyone keep "what they brought to the table."

Take your EW fence - if most of the new flying is on the East how does that either protect the west from shrinkage/furlough or let them exercise their seniority? A fence is attractive to the people on one side when most of the benefits of the merger are going to that side. Just like when you were in PHL confident that no one from the other side could displace you, the folks on the other side saw most of their bases and one hub close and were all moving backwards - because of a C&R meant to protect the South from the more senior North.

The law of unintended consequences hasn't been repealed, so any C&R's will have the problem of not forecasting something.

Jim

So you will admit that there might be a flaw in the system whereby NIC gives ALL this credit to how well
the West was doing then Vegas closed and Parker is chomping at the bit to draw down PHX considerably and 500 guys who
were shown as furloughed are now working and will soon be skyrocketing up the East list........YA THINK MAYBE THAT IS WHY WE ARE WHERE WE ARE
.....OH YEA I FORGOT....YOU DON'T CARE!!!! How much career expectations are on the West now versus the East
...go ahead give it a shot!!!!!

NICDOA
NPJB

 

[Barrister]

That is why I specifically said "brought to the merger" not just the 9 330s but the 767 too. I am 56 years old I am a hundred or so # from holding the 767 (I might add a $30/hour raise from the east perspective) if the Nic was instituted today I would lose over 500 numbers (the vast majority of those people being younger than I am) These #'s are guesstimates. There use to be a excel spreadsheet floating around that was more specific but I can not seem to find it anymore. My point in all this is to try to explain how much the Nic hurts some of us. Look I agree the Nic is the list; we agreed to binding arbrition and we are stuck with it once we approve a joint contract. However, there is nothing on the table yet that wants me to tell the union send this out for a vote. The company could have a contract with the Nic in it tomorrow all they would have to do is make their offer positive enough that it outweighs the negatives of the Nic. Don't see that happening anytime soon.

Sad

The part that the West doesn't get is that a whole bunch of Captains got screwed by NIC...not just F/Os.

NICDOA
NPJB

 

[BoeingBoy]

This is where you spin that there's no evidence of any material being given to AOL....

And then there's this gem....

Jim, I don't give 2 squirts about ALPA..everyone here knows how you feel about it...no need to go there again. And all anybody has to do is research your posting history over several years to see how you always lay cover for them, and what they did. I'd much rather point out to you your own pathetic hypocrisy when you start arguing in circles with multiple people.

ALPA-SHMALPA...you run interference for the west all the time....and thats a fact....you, sir, are the one attacking because you've talked yourself into a box....and you call me a liar. Priceless.
1547Z

Thank you for your spin, mini-me Nosum...

I've never claimed that AOL didn't receive ANY information - that's a lie. I have said that none of us know how much of "truncated" SS# was contained in the file and whether either the asst chief pilot or AOL knew it was there.

I'm no great lover of ALPA or any of the big unions. You're a newbie and based in SFO for another airline, so you may not have seen the times I've said just that. What fascinates me about the USAPA faithful is the lack of separation between the ALPA MEC (the faithful's fellow pilots) and ALPA national. There's also the feeble excuses for the concessions - "ALPA made me vote for them". Except for the pension, every concession has been ratified by the pilots but it's all someone else's fault. Little kids attempt to blame others when they're caught being bad, adults are supposed to behave differently.

But facts don't mean any more to you than most of the East. So spin your fantasy world all you want - you do it so well.

Jim