US Pilots Labor Discussion

[CactusPilot1]

You're embarrassing yourself now. And stop taking your BS to our FA's. Just because you westies don't get along with your FA's doesn't mean you can be condescending to ours. All I know is this: you have acknowledged that AOL got and purposely used a list you were not entitled to...and you are spending precious energy to deny and deflect it. Your significant other (BoeingBoy) has gone to bat for you by throwing out suppositions and doubts about AOL's involvement, but I just showed him to be contradicting himself as well. ( He calls that an attack...which I just dig.) Your Emperor Fergie just says I'm delusional...maybe I am, but it's his arse in the wringer (yours too) not mine.

XOXO

Looky here, I went fishing and just caught a small fry. Let's switch gears here and start debating Leonidas' recent mailing. I'm getting a little bored with this alleged ID theft diversion.

Let's start discussing what is in that mailing that sent Cleary into orbit.

 

[RSVP767]

Let's start discussing what is in that mailing that sent Cleary into orbit.

Nothing of substance. But if I had to guess, maybe it was the biased propaganda, lies and mis-truths.

 

[CactusPilot1]

Nothing of substance. But if I had to guess, maybe it was the biased propaganda, lies and mis-truths.

I think that is a good description of the Rusty Compass. B)

 

[BoeingBoy]

Nothing of substance. But if I had to guess, maybe it was the biased propaganda, lies and mis-truths.

Interesting way of putting it. You say nothing of substance was in the mailing as if you'd at least looked through it, but then have to guess about the contents. Short-term memory loss?

Jim

 

[Zone5]

Kagel actually put a fence between "North" and "South" that prevented bumping across the fence for I think 2 years. Then, like is often said about this place now, the growth was to kick in. Unfortunately, the furloughs of 91 kicked in. Everyone is still waiting for the rapid growth that the Kagel C&R's were written in anticipation of.

That's generally the problem with C&R's - they're written for one future course of events. Kagel used several pages of the award for C&R's to protect the PI pilots until the growth was supposedly to kick in. Ironically, the big furlough of '91 kicked in first. The realignment of bases is one example of protections given, but when that realignment happened with the '91 furlough the protection for realignment ended up with one side getting nearly all the displacements.

Most of the Kagel C&R's used more words to spell out than the entirety of USAPA's C&R's, and the choice is between Nic and USAPA. Writing C&R's seems simple, but to really cover all envisioned eventualities they need to be complex. That complexity usually means questions will arrive because something not expected happens and someone has to decide how to interpret the C&R. Kagel retained that right for the PI/US merger, just like Nic does for this merger if his list is used. Throw out the Nic list and USAPA is the ultimate decision maker for the C&R's. Somehow I doubt that the West pilots are comfortable giving USAPA that power over their careers.

Jim

Barring another 911 type occurrence and perhaps oil going to $200+ or the US economy dropping off a cliff, the airline industry as a whole seems to have reached a relatively stable position of equilibrium.

Outside of a future merger, it appears doubtful that any further consolidation of US Airways bases is in the cards. Attrition is a fact of life however. People will always retire, die, get hit by a bus, get fired, disabled, win the lottery, ect. Most of this is very predictable and can be pretty accurately projected. Insurance companies do it all the time. C&R's can be written in light of the current reality facing the company and if that's not possible because of a lack of trust in USAPA to interpret those C&R's going forward, then that's a real travesty.

A "Kagelish" fence between East and West could be erected, attrition is going to happen and until then, protections to "keep what you brought" or better if you can hold it, until time makes it no longer necessary, is doable.

There will always be uncertainty in life and no system can possibly predict all of the potential events which will occur. One thing is certain and will effect everyone and everything across the board.........the march of time!

seajay

 

[Zone5]

Looky here, I went fishing and just caught a small fry. Let's switch gears here and start debating Leonidas' recent mailing. I'm getting a little bored with this alleged ID theft diversion.

Let's start discussing what is in that mailing that sent Cleary into orbit.

Good idea.

seajay

 

[RSVP767]

Interesting way of putting it. You say nothing of substance was in the mailing as if you'd at least looked through it, but then have to guess about the contents. Short-term memory loss?

Jim

I read it. For entertainment. Quite biased (I know....Shocked face) and short sighted. Kind of like Nic. Lets see you extrapolate out those graphs on pages 13 & 14 for say......5, 10, 15 years. Lets see how the East fares vs. West on those graphs! Yeah,.....we'll never see that info from the West.

 

[nic4us]

A similar provision would allow West pilots to "keep" what they have until attrition/growth? kicks in. That would probably be less than 5 years.

I don't think there should be any widebody protection outside of that described above. DOH across the board, when there is an opening vacated by a pre-merger pilot and you got the seniority to hold it, it's yours. Throw in a provision for pre-merger PHX F/O's giving them priority for PHX Capitan positions and their pre-merger "career expectations" are covered. Pre-merger seniority used for furlough protection.

seajay

There is really no reason to discuss alternative methods of integration, as the Nic is the only accepted system seniority list at LCC, and will be the only list implemented in a joint contract. However, I would like to point out the fundemental flaw in your scenario.

First, you are still looking at it as though I am being added to the east list. Lets talk about what my position was. Is it merely the seat I was in at the time of the merger, or was it my status and ranking within the West pilot group, and my future potential ("career expectation") with the airline? You are saying, it was my A320 captin seat, which you are willing to make provisions to help me keep, as long as east furloughees can have my position, status and ranking. Your scenario absolutely strips me of any upward mobility for the remainder of my carrer, as I could not hold that same a320 lineholding captain seat for another 10 years, while the former east pilots enjoy their new found windfall rakning within the company puts them on the fast track to career advancement.

Now the east arguement that the Nic does the same in reverse is pure horse manure. Everybody keeps their relative pre-merger position, status and ranking. The east's own specialist said that career advancement on the east would be delayed by as much as two years vs. stand alone. But the problem is, you did not stand alone, and the West was not being added to your stand alone list. Is two years a lot, considering many on the east were closing in faster on retirement? Perhaps, but Nic could not use age as a criteria, as there are age discrimination laws in this country that would have made that pretty unseemly. So, everybody gets to share the newly formed combined advancement equally, with an edge given to the east by Nic giving you guys the top 517. The Nic is fair, perhaps overly simple, and most importantly the result of binding arbitration.

I pick on Theur a lot in this thread. The reason is he gave an interview in a USA Today article when the merger went down. The whole premise of his interview was that now it was his turn to leepfrog forward, as the merger would supply this large group of people who would come in under him. Absolutely out of touch with the term "career expectation".

 

[Sadstateofaffairs]

There is really no reason to discuss alternative methods of integration, as the Nic is the only accepted system seniority list at LCC, and will be the only list implemented in a joint contract. However, I would like to point out the fundemental flaw in your scenario.

First, you are still looking at it as though I am being added to the east list. Lets talk about what my position was. Is it merely the seat I was in at the time of the merger, or was it my status and ranking within the West pilot group, and my future potential ("career expectation") with the airline? You are saying, it was my A320 captin seat, which you are willing to make provisions to help me keep, as long as east furloughees can have my position, status and ranking. Your scenario absolutely strips me of any upward mobility for the remainder of my carrer, as I could not hold that same a320 lineholding captain seat for another 10 years, while the former east pilots enjoy their new found windfall rakning within the company puts them on the fast track to career advancement.

Now the east arguement that the Nic does the same in reverse is pure horse manure. Everybody keeps their relative pre-merger position, status and ranking. The east's own specialist said that career advancement on the east would be delayed by as much as two years vs. stand alone. But the problem is, you did not stand alone, and the West was not being added to your stand alone list. Is two years a lot, considering many on the east were closing in faster on retirement? Perhaps, but Nic could not use age as a criteria, as there are age discrimination laws in this country that would have made that pretty unseemly. So, everybody gets to share the newly formed combined advancement equally, with an edge given to the east by Nic giving you guys the top 517. The Nic is fair, perhaps overly simple, and most importantly the result of binding arbitration.

I pick on Theur a lot in this thread. The reason is he gave an interview in a USA Today article when the merger went down. The whole premise of his interview was that now it was his turn to leepfrog forward, as the merger would supply this large group of people who would come in under him. Absolutely out of touch with the term "career expectation".

By putting the list together by Nic's relative position I lose any chance of being a block holding captain on the wide bodies we brought to the merger. That is a huge lose. Explain to me how that is horse manure?

 

[e28]

Nope, just saying your, mine, BS', Luv's, etc names and addresses are public information. As for the rest, not one of you have proof that complete SS# or anything else confidential was given to AOL. If it's proven, and the intent to transmit that information was present, then we can talk about that.

Jim

This is where you spin that there's no evidence of any material being given to AOL....

Maybe you should stop making things up. I never said that AOL didn't have anything to do with the list - it would be stupid to say that since it's known that they got the list. It's the illegal, theft, or whatever part I object to. That is an opinion and far from established fact.


Jim

And then there's this gem....

You're starting to sound like Nosum. I answered your questions and you claim I didn't. You accused me of "devotion to ALPA" which is something I definitely don't suffer from, especially at the East MEC level. That was the attack.

If you're going to just be another liar on the East side (not that Nosum needs help with that job) I'll call you on every one that pertains to me. This situation is screwed up enough as it is without another smart-ass liar.

Prove that I have any "devotion to ALPA".

Time check - 10:29 lcl

Jim

Jim, I don't give 2 squirts about ALPA..everyone here knows how you feel about it...no need to go there again. And all anybody has to do is research your posting history over several years to see how you always lay cover for them, and what they did. I'd much rather point out to you your own pathetic hypocrisy when you start arguing in circles with multiple people.

ALPA-SHMALPA...you run interference for the west all the time....and thats a fact....you, sir, are the one attacking because you've talked yourself into a box....and you call me a liar. Priceless.
1547Z

 

[nic4us]

I read it. For entertainment. Quite biased (I know....Shocked face) and short sighted. Kind of like Nic. Lets see you extrapolate out those graphs on pages 13 & 14 for say......5, 10, 15 years. Lets see how the East fares vs. West on those graphs! Yeah,.....we'll never see that info from the West.

What are you talking about? 15 years? I thought all the east would be long retired by then and the West pilots other than myself (cause I will be retired) could inherit the airline.

Post the graph the east came up with showing the movement. It is actually a good supplement to the graphs AOL made. It shows that the east pilots retain their advancing position and status throughout the remainder of their career just like the West pilots do.

PS. it is not hard to extrapolate the DOH graph that puts 85% of the West at the bottom. The West stays at the bottom in 5, 10, 15 years.

 

[767jetz]

Your thought process is still truncated. So the company gets a discount; even a third of the rate is 100 grand. As far as advertising, the company probably made Lifelock sign a no advertising clause as they don't want Lifelock to advertise to the world that they can't control their employee's confidential information and need to provide Lifelock as a result. E pilots aren't subsidizing a thing. The company wouldn't spend a nickel on this if they didn't feel they have to.

Did it ever occur to you that sometimes in the world of courtrooms and the law, it is more economical for a company to placate the children throwing the tantrum with a carrot (like LifeLock) than to spend millions of dollars fighting another wild goose chase? It's called settling, and it's done often. Don't read so much into it. It's simple dollars and cents. The distraction alone is not worth the effort to them. LifeLock is not an admission of wrongdoing on their part, as you presume. It's just an admission that they know the crybabies they are dealing with.

 

[767jetz]

Looky here, I went fishing and just caught a small fry. Let's switch gears here and start debating Leonidas' recent mailing. I'm getting a little bored with this alleged ID theft diversion.

Let's start discussing what is in that mailing that sent Cleary into orbit.

Good idea. Please elaborate on some of the highlights for those of us who haven't seen it.

 

[nic4us]

By putting the list together by Nic's relative position I lose any chance of being a block holding captain on the wide bodies we brought to the merger. That is a huge lose. Explain to me how that is horse manure?

That would be a big loss, but what I have to ask is are you certain there is that difference? Are you close to holding that position now, or are you speculating about something 10-15 years down the road? Remember, (if you are close now) that the West does have attrition also, and it is much more heavily weighted at the top than the east's attrition. when we retire say 50 in a year, 35-40 of them come out of the top 100, so almost everybody moves up.

My point being, if you are close to holding that now, you are still going to get it. If you are forecasting out 15 years, you are making assumptions that are likely not valid.

Also, from a West perspective, the only widebody that pays more is the 330. The east brought 9 to the merger. We are now at 14 or 16 or something like that, which means there are 7 you did not bring to the merger. Further, the merger put us in the position of being the launch customer for the A350, and you did not bring those seats either. So I have a hard time giving you any exclusive rights to something you actually did not bring.

 

[UtterlyUdder]

You're starting to sound like Nosum. I answered your questions and you claim I didn't. You accused me of "devotion to ALPA" which is something I definitely don't suffer from, especially at the East MEC level. That was the attack.

If you're going to just be another liar on the East side (not that Nosum needs help with that job) I'll call you on every one that pertains to me. This situation is screwed up enough as it is without another smart-ass liar.

Prove that I have any "devotion to ALPA".

Time check - 10:29 lcl

Jim

That has got to be the funniest thing I have ever read here!!!