US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Pi brat]

It's in one of the pilot crew news videos a few months back. Let me ask you this. Parker has said:
- HP (aka West) would have faced a cash crunch and US (aka East) would have liquidated without the merger.
- HP would have filed for BK and US would have liquidated without the merger.
- Neither HP nor US would have survived without the merger.

Notice anything consistent in each of those statements other than "without the merger"?

Jim

I'm guessing you are going for US would have liquidated in all three, and merger. He only mentioned that HP would be gone in one of three, but he has said it none the less. Death Knell was the term he used in the last one. Death Knell...........has quite a ring to it, doesn't it?

I've said before I was preparing for liquidation, the thing is neither of us did, a merger saved us BOTH.

 

[Pi brat]

It was in a crew news a few months back. I forget what the topic was, or I would go find it for you. Maybe somene else remembers.

Actually, my take on it when he said it was not how people are portraying the comment. I think what he was trying to say was something to the effect of sometimes his statements need to be embellished to get the point across to the audience he is addressing.

Well, I haven't had good luck with taking a certain west pilot's word for things, but since it is you I will accept it. Don't feel like watching those things again!

I remember him saying something to the effect that sometimes he says things off the cuff that come back to bite him. I didn't take it that he intentionally misstates things, he is just free with his opinion, kind of thinks out loud.

 

[BoeingBoy]

I'm guessing you are going for US would have liquidated in all three, and merger. He only mentioned that HP would be gone in on of three, but he has said it none the less.

I said except "without the merger" so you only get a silver star. Absolutely, as economic conditions changed 20-20 hindsight would tell anyone that Parker's prognosis for a standalone HP would have changed. But I'm talking about reasonable expectations at the time of the merger if there had not been a merger. Parker was telling both sides that at the time of the merger the East pilots' expectations was to be out of a job if it hadn't been for the merger. The West may have folded at some point in time without the merger, but pre-merger expectations are what an arbitrator looks at - not some possible future that may or may not come true. So according to both Nic and Parker, the East had few real expectations as a stand alone carrier.

Of course we hear that East would have been fine, people only came back from furlough because of the future attrition, etc. Those expectations are a result of the merger and not something the East had any justification for pre-merger.

I've said it before but it's been awhile. Of all the people I flew with during and after the BK1 & 2 concessions, not 1 said "I really don't like these concessions but ALPA is making me vote for them." What I heard was variations of "I don't like the concessions but I'm too old to start over somewhere else" and "I don't like the concessions but I can't make that anywhere else." Notice that both presume no job without the concessions, nevermind new deliveries and advancement. As I've also said, US was out of cash on 7/30/2005 - exiting BK intact wasn't really an option, hence the renewed talks with UA and HP. And UA said "No thanks".

Jim

 

[Pi brat]

I said except "without the merger" so you only get a silver star. Absolutely, as economic conditions changed 20-20 hindsight would tell anyone that Parker's prognosis for a standalone HP would have changed. But I'm talking about reasonable expectations at the time of the merger if there had not been a merger. Parker was telling both sides that at the time of the merger the East pilots' expectations was to be out of a job if it hadn't been for the merger. The West may have folded at some point in time without the merger, but pre-merger expectations are what an arbitrator looks at - not some possible future that may or may not come true. So according to both Nic and Parker, the East had few real expectations as a stand alone carrier.

Of course we hear that East would have been fine, people only came back from furlough because of the future attrition, etc. Those expectations are a result of the merger and not something the East had any justification for pre-merger.

I've said it before but it's been awhile. Of all the people I flew with during and after the BK1 & 2 concessions, not 1 said "I really don't like these concessions but ALPA is making me vote for them." What I heard was variations of "I don't like the concessions but I'm too old to start over somewhere else" and "I don't like the concessions but I can't make that anywhere else." Notice that both presume no job without the concessions, nevermind new deliveries and advancement. As I've also said, US was out of cash on 7/30/2005 - exiting BK intact wasn't really an option, hence the renewed talks with UA and HP. And UA said "No thanks".

Jim

Dang, a silver.

Of course only Parker knows what he thought pre-merger and we don't know when he came to the conclusion of AWA's death knell, do we? Would he go on CNBC and say, "The airline I was running was toast"? Maybe, I doubt it, but he had been looking for a merger partner for quite a while. UA, ATA, US.

What we know is that the west's career expectations would most likely not come true, just as US pilot's liquidation fears didn't come true. Right? Even Nic discounted their rosey picture.

 

[CactusPilot1]

- HP would have filed for BK and US would have liquidated without the merger.
- Neither HP nor US would have survived without the merger.


Jim

Jim,

Us Air liquidation was certainty, HP a maybe. Remember, Parker went after Delta Airlines within months without completing the US merger. Hindsight tells me that a Delta merger may have gone smoother and nothing like the disaster we face today. Who knows, maybe Delta may have saved HP but that is a could of, would of, should of.

Bottom line, you may have an expectation or a plan, sometimes fate takes US in a different direction.

It's life, it all depends on how you cope with the cards that are dealt.

 

[Pi brat]

Jim,

Since you brought up career expectations at the time of the merger, why was the fleet at the time of the merger not used? I remember discussions about how Nic cleaned up the list etc., but can't remember the answers. Seems like if he used career expectations as of 5/19/2005, he should use the fleet of that date too, right?

Also, let's look at career expectations on the day of the merger vs. when he published the list. They had changed a lot, but he seemed to ignore them. What if they changed more? Say something like another 9/11 happened late that year in PHX and the company had to shutdown operations there. Do you think he would still go back to May 19, 2005 and merge the lists as if that never happened.

With just a quick look at the Republic merger it doesn't look like the arbitrator did that there. Didn't Republic come in and buy an operating airline, then later replace their planes, furlough their pilots leaving them to be slotted way down the Republic list? I haven't had a chance to study that one.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Well, I haven't had good luck with taking a certain west pilot's word for things, but since it is you I will accept it. Don't feel like watching those things again!

I remember him saying something to the effect that sometimes he says things off the cuff that come back to bite him. I didn't take it that he intentionally misstates things, he is just free with his opinion, kind of thinks out loud.

Sometimes it's good to go back to the source rather than rely on fuzzy memories..

Try the 11/17/2-10 PXH Pilot Crew News under the Nic topic - "Sometimes I make statements that really aren't true...I don't mean true but they're for a fact."

That's also when Parker said that they weren't going to take people who were active employees and have them fall behind people who were furloughed at the time.

Jim

 

[Pi brat]

Sometimes it's good to go back to the source rather than rely on fuzzy memories..

Try the 11/17/2-10 PXH Pilot Crew News under the Nic topic - "Sometimes I make statements that really aren't true...I don't mean true but they're for a fact."

That's also when Parker said that they weren't going to take people who were active employees and have them fall behind people who were furloughed at the time.

Jim

Good idea, glad I came up with it, that's why I asked in the first place. Thanks for the date, I'll take a look.

 

[CactusPilot1]

Now I wish I had kept copies of similar threats made against me by the notably absent "EastUS". Perhaps those of you that received similar threats did so. I believe he was wacky enough to go "airline" at any moment.

Having been a business owner at age 20, I learned about sharks a long time ago. I adopted President Reagan's use of the Russian proverb, Доверяй, но проверяй. Davehr'yay, noh praver'yay, which translates as trust but verify. He knew he was dealing with a bear, I know I am swimming with sharks. <_<

Hire good attorneys and document everything.

 

[Pi brat]

Try the 11/17/2-10 PXH Pilot Crew News under the Nic topic - "Sometimes I make statements that really aren't true...I don't mean true but they're for a fact."

That's also when Parker said that they weren't going to take people who were active employees and have them fall behind people who were furloughed at the time.

Jim

Well, that's not what I heard. What I heard was "Sometimes I make statements that really aren't true...I don't mean true but they're for effect." Silver star for Jim.

You will notice that at times he comes back, when someone pins him on something, and says "What I was trying to say was........." When he was listing the criteria for a seniority list, he said what you said above. What I think the company meant when it came out with that list of requirements was that they would not bring back a person that was furloughed at the time and replace a working crew member. That is not an issue now and in response to the question of whether a DOH list would meet those requirements he says "Sure, DOH, I think, I mean, again......... any # of lists might, indeed alpabetical might................."

 

[Barrister]

Jim,

Us Air liquidation was certainty, HP a maybe. Remember, Parker went after Delta Airlines within months without completing the US merger. Hindsight tells me that a Delta merger may have gone smoother and nothing like the disaster we face today. Who knows, maybe Delta may have saved HP but that is a could of, would of, should of.

Bottom line, you may have an expectation or a plan, sometimes fate takes US in a different direction.

It's life, it all depends on how you cope with the cards that are dealt.

Yea and had NIC done the Delta HP merger the top 4000 piots would have been DAL and US guys....you cool with that??

NICDOA
NPJB

 

[BoeingBoy]

What I think the company meant when it came out with that list of requirements

I didn't know you could read minds...

Thankfully reading minds isn't necessary. From the Joint Statement of Labor Principles by Parker and Lakefield, I believe issued about the time of the actual merger:

Although the seniority integration process will be handled by your union representatives, we have
every expectation that our unions will honor certain obviously fair and equitable protocols as they
implement their merger policies or Allegheny Mohawk provisions. Specifically, we would expect that no
employee who already had been furloughed prior to the merger would be permitted to bump an active
employee out of a job. Likewise, we expect our unions will recognize a solution that simply “staples” all
employees of one airline to the bottom of the other’s seniority list as unacceptable and unconscionable.
To that end, because of seniority differences in some groups, straight seniority integration could have an
effect similar to that of stapling employees to the bottom of a seniority list, an outcome that is inconsistent
with a fair and equitable protocol. Therefore, some type of proportional integration would seem
reasonable. Given our experience working with your union representatives, we do not anticipate they
would advocate an integrated seniority list that violates the basic tenets of fairness and equity, and we
encourage them to help ease any uncertainty among their members as soon as possible by confirming
their intention to work toward seniority integration using these basic principles.

Jim

 

[Pi brat]

Sometimes it's good to go back to the source rather than rely on fuzzy memories..

Try the 11/17/2-10 PXH Pilot Crew News under the Nic topic - "Sometimes I make statements that really aren't true...I don't mean true but they're for a fact."

That's also when Parker said that they weren't going to take people who were active employees and have them fall behind people who were furloughed at the time.

Jim

Did ya listen to the one after "Nicolau", titled "Taking Sides". Almost as good as death knell.

 

[CactusPilot1]

Yea and had NIC done the Delta HP merger the top 4000 piots would have been DAL and US guys....you cool with that??

NICDOA
NPJB

Since you mixed the Nic and US in the same line, I would be cool with that considering the Nic is the only list which will be used in the next merger and we all work for the same company.

Usapians need to remember the Pity Train has just derailed at the intersection of Suck It Up & Move On and crashed into We All Have Problems before coming to a complete stop at Get the Hell Over It.

Reporting LIVE from Quitchur Bitchin'.

 

[Pi brat]

I didn't know you could read minds...

Thankfully reading minds isn't necessary. From the Joint Statement of Labor Principles by Parker and Lakefield, I believe issued about the time of the actual merger:

Although the seniority integration process will be handled by your union representatives, we have
every expectation that our unions will honor certain obviously fair and equitable protocols as they
implement their merger policies or Allegheny Mohawk provisions. Specifically, we would expect that no
employee who already had been furloughed prior to the merger would be permitted to bump an active
employee out of a job. Likewise, we expect our unions will recognize a solution that simply “staples” all
employees of one airline to the bottom of the other’s seniority list as unacceptable and unconscionable.
To that end, because of seniority differences in some groups, straight seniority integration could have an
effect similar to that of stapling employees to the bottom of a seniority list, an outcome that is inconsistent
with a fair and equitable protocol. Therefore, some type of proportional integration would seem
reasonable. Given our experience working with your union representatives, we do not anticipate they
would advocate an integrated seniority list that violates the basic tenets of fairness and equity, and we
encourage them to help ease any uncertainty among their members as soon as possible by confirming
their intention to work toward seniority integration using these basic principles.

Jim

Expect, bump, out.................look them up. I expected to become rich and good looking................

USAPA's list is DOH, with C&Rs, not a straight DOH. I know the west thinks not good enough, I have concerns with them too, but there is a difference because DOH with no restrictions could be very expensive for the company.