US Pilots Labor Discussion

[cleardirect]

This is not accurate.

The list is not in effect and never will be. Any attempt to use the ill-conceived and fatally flawed NIC list in any future merger would be aggressively challenged, and tied up, in court for an extremely long time; this would be an extremely effective roadblock against any future merger activity.

Boeing Driver

OK legal beagle. On what grounds would the Nicolau be challenged in court?

The SOL ran out a very long time ago.

If you think this would block the next merger, it kind of makes your COC USELESS.

 

[nic4us]

This is not accurate.

The list is not in effect and never will be. Any attempt to use the ill-conceived and fatally flawed NIC list in any future merger would be aggressively challenged, and tied up, in court for an extremely long time; this would be an extremely effective roadblock against any future merger activity.

Boeing Driver

The Nic is accepted by LCC as the only system seniority list on record. Its implementation awaits a joint contract.

What list do you think would be used for a future integration? There is no other list at LCC.

Further, who would challenge it in court, usapa? usapa will not survive a merger. Individual east pilots going to sue? over what?

You are right about the effective roadblock, but not for the reasons you are thinking. Cleary might know about the roadblock I am talking about, he already has first hand experience when he ran to the 9th for an emergency release from the Wake verdict, and helped dork up the UAL merger.

Speaking of the usapian idiot's run to the 9th during the UAL merger talks, don't you usapa supporters think that if the 9th's ruling means all the unfactual BS that you read into it (in reality the 9th said nothing more than not ripe), they would have granted usapa their emergency request?

 

[mikey60]

Tiny bit?

That is dependant on how for down the West list you look, actually my percentage loss was not that great, but as you move up from me the loss gets exponential.

For example, a few years back, on this forum, east posters were picking on Rob Costello's position, where he would be in 10 years and because of his age, how long he would be there, and they were saying it as though Rob was awarded some kind of great windfall. Rob was like number 12 on the west list in 2005. 12 out of 1884. On the Nic Rob is moved to about 550 out of 5000. Now I Know the rest of us junior schmucks often find it hard to sympathize with a guy who is still near the top 10%, but the fact that he was formerly in the top less than 1%, was an instrumental part in the building of AWA, was once an AWA 747 captain, is a check airman, and all around one of the nicest people you could ever meet, means absolutley nothing to the arrogance of some east posters. The assumption is, heck, Rob would have never been that senior if he was hired at AAA in 1984. But, the fact of the matter is he wasn't hired at AAA, and he was not added to the east list, and for years he was already waaayyyy more senior than he is now.

The point is, Rob recieved no windfall, nor did any West pilot. You are of course free to disagree.

Did I just write this long Costello biography so that you could use this exchange as an example to BB of admiting when you are wrong? After all, you did start off your post with,"OK, your right".

Under DOH he is around no 721 just below Burdic, at least that is using the lists as I see it. Good guy, bad guy, whatever he gains about 160 numbers. You might think thats fair. It doesn't effect me at all but ask each of those 160 pilots and you will get a different answer I'm sure.

 

[nic4us]

Go back the Nic vs AWA stand alone and tell me if you are at a higher relative position on the nic or stand alone-today, not the day the Nic was published. You might be, I don't know who you are, but the west pilots I've seen are already at a higher relative position on the Nic than they would have been and a stand alone AWA list and the gap gets bigger as the years go on.

Sounds like Rob was screwed by Nic. I've always said I thought the senior west guys were because there was no fences to protect them from the east 517. Sounds like DOH with C&Rs that protect his position in PHX is a better deal. Problem solved! I'm all for ya Rob B)

I don't know my relative position on an updated Nic list, so I can't compare. But, I would suspect that I am back to my relative position I had pre-merger, maybe a little above it, it has been 6 years after all. Remember though, the east pilots started on day one with enhanced relative positions, and in my seniority range on the Nic, the east pilots relative seniority moved up pretty significantly.

I would venture to guess that Rob feels he got more screwed by the east and usapa for forcing seperate ops, not getting a joint contract and a raise.

He is a checkairman, and an A320 DE. I don't think he flys the line hardly at all, and his training position is pretty secure as long as LCC flys A320s.

 

[flypg]

Under DOH he is around no 721 just below Burdic, at least that is using the lists as I see it. Good guy, bad guy, whatever he gains about 160 numbers. You might think thats fair. It doesn't effect me at all but ask each of those 160 pilots and you will get a different answer I'm sure.

Its really funny, V said something interesting. Had the Westicles taken DOH with a 10 year fence, they would be about half way done with tons of attrition on the way. Oh wait ! we have DOH on the east now, sure pay sucks but DOH anyway. And maybe an end to LOA 93...That's why Tuts, Duphis 1, (F'ed up) fodase and al. are all mad as hell... and 1.8 mil in the hole to boot...Keep the donations coming. Talk about clowns...

 

[flypg]

I don't know my relative position on an updated Nic list, so I can't compare. But, I would suspect that I am back to my relative position I had pre-merger, maybe a little above it, it has been 6 years after all. Remember though, the east pilots started on day one with enhanced relative positions, and in my seniority range on the Nic, the east pilots relative seniority moved up pretty significantly.

I would venture to guess that Rob feels he got more screwed by the east and usapa for forcing seperate ops, not getting a joint contract and a raise.

He is a checkairman, and an A320 DE. I don't think he flys the line hardly at all, and his training position is pretty secure as long as LCC flys A320s.

Rob aint too smart...with DOH he could be a WB or 76 int cap making more money and working less, even as a check airman. I am sure he is a good guy. Nic ? not so much, but just junior westicle...

 

[Pi brat]

I don't know my relative position on an updated Nic list, so I can't compare. But, I would suspect that I am back to my relative position I had pre-merger, maybe a little above it, it has been 6 years after all. Remember though, the east pilots started on day one with enhanced relative positions, and in my seniority range on the Nic, the east pilots relative seniority moved up pretty significantly. The cross over point was within the first year or two.

I would venture to guess that Rob feels he got more screwed by the east and usapa for forcing seperate ops, not getting a joint contract and a raise.

He is a checkairman, and an A320 DE. I don't think he flys the line hardly at all, and his training position is pretty secure as long as LCC flys A320s.

After the last seniority discussion I should know better. This will be my only post on this, I promise. The west guy I'm looking at is 5.6% points higher on the Nic today than the west stand alone list. The gap increases every year and at 65 he would be 9% points higher. That's not small number now and pretty huge at the top of the list. His east counterpart drops the %s the west guy gains. The crossover point for the east guy I was looking at was in the first year or two. We will all be moving up rapidly after next year no matter what list is used.

I hope Rob hangs on to what he has. If the Nic were implemented tomorrow a lot of senior west line pilots might not.

 

[nic4us]

Under DOH he is around no 721 just below Burdic, at least that is using the lists as I see it. Good guy, bad guy, whatever he gains about 160 numbers. You might think thats fair. It doesn't effect me at all but ask each of those 160 pilots and you will get a different answer I'm sure.

I am having trouble with your post.

First, Rob is now #5 on the west list, and you are confusing me because Burdic the West pilot who was the West volunteer on the usapa negotiating committee, and the only West pilot to walk in the recent PHL info picket, is nowhere near that senior, he is back around the 300-350 something in there mark. Is there an east pilot named Burdic also?

I am not following the 160 numbers gain at all. I think you are saying that the difference between his Nic # and his number if he was placed on the east list is 160, and that those 160 pilots don't like the fact that Rob never worked at AAA and that is why he is senior to them. They will be glad he is a nice guy if they ever get him for a checkride.

I do get the part that you are above him on the Nic, congratualations on your windfall.

 

[nic4us]

Rob aint too smart...with DOH he could be a WB or 76 int cap making more money and working less, even as a check airman. I am sure he is a good guy. Nic ? not so much, but just junior westicle...

Speaking of ain't too smart......

How does Rob get himself DOH? The idiots over at usapa did away with the only people who could negotiate off the Nic.

Oh, BTW, I am just guessing, but I suspect Rob makes more than your industries lowest paid WB captains.

I got more, but I am done discussing it with a junior malcontent, looking to steal West seniority.

 

[aquagreen73s]

Its really funny, V said something interesting. Had the Westicles taken DOH with a 10 year fence, they would be about half way done with tons of attrition on the way.

Over a third of East retirements are out of the right seat. Every West retirement is out of the left seat. Separate ops nets us just about the same number of captain positions as under the Nic's 2:1 integration ratio.

Oh wait ! we have DOH on the east now, sure pay sucks but DOH anyway.

To get my level of insurance coverage, you're paying $3k a year more than I do. How many weather cancellations have you had? How many stand-up overnights, or four day 17 hour trips have you done lately? I'm generally flying 90+ hours a month and I'm gone from home maybe nine nights a month. This months is even less as I've got three long layovers at home. Every trip commutable (thanks PBS!).

And maybe an end to LOA 93...

Another lemming . . .

.That's why Tuts, Duphis 1, (F'ed up) fodase and al. are all mad as hell... and 1.8 mil in the hole to boot...Keep the donations coming. Talk about clowns...

Ran into a returning furlough last night. He's still in training but he's already wearing a silver ($1000) badge. Awesome. He had an interesting insight as to why he and others are coming back. Normally when a pilot is furloughed, they're on the bottom of the list anyway so they might as well start over somewhere else. But this is a very different situation. Now we've got fleet and block hour mins, a pretty darn good quality of life, and the kicker is the Nicolau. Although he's technically on the bottom of the West list, (these are his words) he's coming back with over a thousand East pilots below him and it would be impossible for him to get that kind of seniority anywhere else starting over.

I couldn't agree more.

Enjoy LOA93!

 

[mikey60]

I am having trouble with your post.

First, Rob is now #5 on the west list, and you are confusing me because Burdic the West pilot who was the West volunteer on the usapa negotiating committee, and the only West pilot to walk in the recent PHL info picket, is nowhere near that senior, he is back around the 300-350 something in there mark. Is there an east pilot named Burdic also?

I am not following the 160 numbers gain at all. I think you are saying that the difference between his Nic # and his number if he was placed on the east list is 160, and that those 160 pilots don't like the fact that Rob never worked at AAA and that is why he is senior to them. They will be glad he is a nice guy if they ever get him for a checkride.

I do get the part that you are above him on the Nic, congratualations on your windfall.

No R. Burdic is about no.718 on the east list. Hire date 6/1/86 . Costello is about no. 4 on the list I saw. Hire date 6/15/86 On the nic he is I think you said 550. So if you use DOH he is about 721 and nic about 550, approx 160 numbers.

We have a sim building full of nice guys too. I always found that being ready for a check trumps a house full of nice guys anyday.

Yes the 160 or so people that he is trying to pass on the list will be very upset, I dont blame them. I've been the bottom blockholder and the man below me was a reserve, I dont know your reserve but ours SUCKS. Remember the guy above you on the list is a prick, the guy below you is a dick.

 

[mikey60]

nic4us

I wouldnt mind being no. 600or700 and be 40 again.

 

[Pi brat]

Ran into a returning furlough last night. He's still in training but he's already wearing a silver ($1000) badge. Awesome. He had an interesting insight as to why he and others are coming back. Normally when a pilot is furloughed, they're on the bottom of the list anyway so they might as well start over somewhere else. But this is a very different situation. Now we've got fleet and block hour mins, a pretty darn good quality of life, and the kicker is the Nicolau. Although he's technically on the bottom of the West list, (these are his words) he's coming back with over a thousand East pilots below him and it would be impossible for him to get that kind of seniority anywhere else starting over.

I couldn't agree more.

Enjoy LOA93!

No windfall there, noooooooooo. I'm glad he is back and I hope all of our furloughed pilots are back soon, but I'm having a little trouble with his logic. He has no east pilots below him right now, and with the price of oil, he might be furloughed again before they are. Maybe he should put the backer cash in a bank. Just a thought.

Hey, weren't you the guy that came to the conclusion that the east is overstaffed on captains? For tomorrow we have 1 res C/O in PHl and 4 in CLT. Wow! They are really piling up!

 

[aquagreen73s]

No R. Burdic is about no.718 on the east list. Hire date 6/1/86 . Costello is about no. 4 on the list I saw. Hire date 6/15/86

Think about it...how could a guy be #4 on the AWA list but have DOH of '86? Costello was hired in August of '83. Four years later he was left seat in the 747. It's worked out pretty good for him. Plus as nic4 said, Rob is a great guy.

 

[flypg]

Speaking of ain't too smart......

How does Rob get himself DOH? The idiots over at usapa did away with the only people who could negotiate off the Nic.

Oh, BTW, I am just guessing, but I suspect Rob makes more than your industries lowest paid WB captains.

I got more, but I am done discussing it with a junior malcontent, looking to steal West seniority.

Well then, keep guessing...I will have over forty years (40) here when I retire...BTW, Westicles have nothing to steal from but keep up the donations.