US Pilots Labor Discussion

[doh nogo]

I have not talked out of both sides of my mouth. It is my money that is included in this INVESTMENT, even though I voted against it, and had quit paying ALPA dues long before the Nic came out.....mainly over pension termination.

Like I said, it doesn't matter how it got there, it's money that we gave up and brought to the table. Call it an investment.....a screwin', or whatever you want.....it's still our monies on the table.

We I referred to "you" I meant it in the plural., as in USAPA and it's supporters on this forum.

You claim that your status and pay (ie: lowest paid in the industry; worst work rules; 17 year furloughs) was an investment in your career. As you put it, money you gave up and brought to the table. Well what about what we brought to the table? Many of us came to AWA because we wanted to work for smaller low cost carrier where the career advancement was better than other, higher paying properties. So that was an investment in OUR career, or money we brought to the table if you will. You(pl) always overstate your own value and understate our, as if we came along and were just added to YOUR airline. When we all came to the table to barter with what we each had, and couldn't agree, an arbitrator decided for us what the value of our currency was. That's the bottom line.

 

[Reed Richards]

If we want a merger you guys better read this



In case you haven't figured it out yet, PHL and DCA are in bed with PHX and working with a group of Mike Cleary haters to unseat Cleary and replace him with EVP Gary Hummel. If this happens you can kiss your seniority goodbye and thank Dave Ciabattoni, Gary Hummel, Mark King, Woody Menear, Rob Streble, and Eric Rowe along with their unlikely buddies from the Army of Leonidas for it (and PHL and DCA Reps.)

A cog in the machinery of this plan was revealed to you with a betrayal of your trust when on February 19th, PHL and DCA published a joint update wrought with harsh public criticism of the man in charge of defending your seniority, President Mike Cleary. If you are not outraged by the action of PHL/DCA you should check your pulse because you are about to have the knife twisted in your back by the Reps. from these two domiciles. Rest assured that their take on what has been going on behind the scenes in their update is far from accurate. The process of unseating Cleary has been slow and methodical and this is just the latest blow to the nail in the coffin of your career courtesy of the out going PHL reps and DCA.

Here is another tidbit of betrayal by the PHL/DCA Reps. you have never heard before:

At 1900 on January 20th, there was an “Informal” conference call conducted by some members of the BPR. The request for the call was sent out January 19th by PHL Chairman Doug Burke presumably at the behest of Eric Ferguson and was quickly supported by all PHX, PHL, and DCA Representatives. CLT Representatives objected to the meeting because it was in violation of the Union Operating Manual's requirement to notify the membership of any call as well as the planned subject matter of such 48 hours in advance. No Officers were invited to participate and no minutes were taken and you will not find any record of the proceedings on the USAPA website. In short, the meeting never happened - it was behind closed doors, sound familiar?

The topic of discussion on the conference call was how to teach the USAPA President a lesson with regard to an email he had recently sent out that some members of the BPR took exception to. The action taken at the conference call - which is also a violation of the Union Operating Manual because no action is allowed to be taken at an information only conference call - was to task PHX Vice Chairman Eric Ferguson (the founder of Army of Leonidas) to write a letter of censure against the President to be signed by willing BPR members and emailed to the membership. Unbelievably, during debate it was the PHX Vice Chairman who spoke against such a public censure and DCA and PHL Vice Chairmen Pete Dugstad and John Dubarry who insisted that the letter be sent. At the end of debate, Dugstad and Dubarry prevailed and the letter was drafted by Ferguson but in the following days and after much emotional lobbying behind the scenes by certain members of USAPA, it did not see the light of day. However, on February 19th DCA/PHL published their own version of this devastating piece of gossip as their "joint update" you have probably seen.

If you think these actions are treacherous, you are correct. If you think that toppling Mike Cleary and replacing him with Gary Hummel (who will win with 1700 west votes right out of the gate) is the road to protect your contract aspirations and your seniority, you are sorely mistaken. There are two goals here...get a contract, and fix the seniority mess and we cannot accomplish either if every minute of every day of our Reps. and our Officers time is taken up with this nonsense. You, the line pilots must, and can make it stop. Let your DCA and PHL Reps. know that you are outraged and tell them to cease and desist. The PHL Reps. have just over one month left in their terms and this is their parting shot? - their legacy? Surely they can bridle their near sided urges for that long. And the DCA Reps? Well, that's another story. They are barely into their terms and they have betrayed you harshly so some brainstorming will need to be done to fix that problem.

Is there hope in the future? Yes. On April 1st three new PHL Reps. take office and two of them, Steve Szpyrka and either Mike Gillies or Brian Pflanzer (runoff) are committed to work in steadfast dedication with those who are focused on a contract with a fix to the seniority issue. That will greatly change the make-up of the BPR and hopefully help end this destructive behavior. Even if you have questions about the fitness of our leadership it should be clear that the forward looking decisions of the BPR should be made by those who will be charged to manage the outcome of those decisions - the incoming reps, not those who see their impending departure as an excuse to recklessly fire fatal shots with a perceived lack of accountability.


Call everyone you know now. Tell them to send a strong message to the BPR that this nonsense will not be tolerated and that they, all of them, will be held accountable.

Besides being a load of horse poopie, your rant does not make sense. If the EVP is trying to usurp the throne, why is it the Sec/Tres is the one getting strangled and shoved?

Truth is there is nobody aspiring to the job of USAPA President. But one thing is for sure, we will never get a contract with the current leader. And the very seniority we all so cherish is at risk because this same President and his cronies are bringing the seniority dispute into the day to day running of the union to achieve his personal goals.

Come on Peters, you can do better than this.

RR

 

[Ames]

You know what squirt? Maybe when your wife asks where the remote is, you might look up your ass, but I've never thought to store anything there. A hard drive works much better. We've been over this before, just a few months ago with cleardirect. Here's some light reading for ya:

http://biz.yahoo.com/e/050426/awa10-q.html
http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/america-west-reports-first-quarter-results-54355172.html
http://www.airtimes.com/cgat/usa/americawest/ar/hp2005.pdf
http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-148713666.html

Thank you for looking all of that up. You prove my point, AWA was profitable going into this merger. Comparing that success to losses a year prior does not take away from improved performance and profitability thereafter.

Once again, your post was simply pulling facts from your ass and you've proven that nicely.

PS: at 6'1'', 200lbs I haven't been called "squirt" in a long time. You seriously need to grow up!

 

[cactusboy53]

Heard an interesting rumor last week while at work. Involved a merger with the west operation and jetblue and or virgin america hooking up and the east operation and hawaiian hooking up. Sounded interesting and thought I would post it and see if anyone else is hearing anything regarding this????

I heard that one too. In early reports the Hawaiian pilots were so pleased about the acquisition that they said they would be pleased to be stapled below the most junior "third-lister" (instead of the "gold standard" of date-of-hire), buy all of the beers on the E190 overnights and let the east pilots conducting their Hawaiian flights stay in their homes in the islands for FREE to help them make the transition!!! Isn't that great?? (Sorry dude, but that was just too easy.)

 

[Pi brat]

Thank you for looking all of that up. You prove my point, AWA was profitable going into this merger. Comparing that success to losses a year prior does not take away from improved performance and profitability thereafter.

Once again, your post was simply pulling facts from your ass and you've proven that nicely.

PS: at 6'1'', 200lbs I haven't been called "squirt" in a long time. You seriously need to grow up!

Another illiterate westie. Lost money whole year 2004, only made money 1st q '05 on hedging, lost money 2nd q '05. I give up. I guess AWA had 777s and A380s on order too. Enjoy your dreamland. But, the squirt was out of line and I apologize. The frustration was getting to me.

 

[Pi brat]

Recalled after the PID.

What was it you guys said about Bybee's opinon? It was the minority so it did not matter. But what did Nicolau and the majority have to say about the PID?


You guys are all about majority correct?




that on epoint being, giving credit to furloughed pilots recalled AFTER the PID. POST merger result.

The bottom line is you guys won't see what you don't want to. There are east guys like that too, but at least on here that award goes to the west MAJORITY. I'm not talking about giving any credit post PID, I'm talking about looking at all the evidence and making a correct opinion of the situation AT PID. Did ALPA merger policy say that after PID Nic had to stick his fingers in his ears and not read anything? I don't think so, and it looks like Brucia didn't either. I think Nic got it wrong about AWA's condition and gave AWA, hence AWA pilots, more credit than due. You don't, and this whole discussion at least proves that.

I've never said anything about the majority rule.

 

[Pi brat]

The problem you got is we have a valid response for all your facts. It is a Fact that we were all aware of the binding arbitration, it is a fact that every merger in the last 20 years has gone equipment/status including the trump shuttle. It is an undeniable fact that dal/nwa and now frontier/republic (done under allegheny/mohawk btw.) placed furloughed pilots at the bottom with some sort of slotting by equipment type. You are right, who saved who has no place in the discussion, fact is the east decided on their own to cause this mess. The Courts won't step in, I'll call it now and tell you that no court in this land will give the company a free pass from the west.

You know what? Except for your first line,and "the courts won't step in," I agree with that post. I have no idea what the courts will do and won't step out with a prediction, but I do have a hard time seeing them give the Co. immunity.

You don't have valid responses to my facts. Look at Ames. I showed him where AWA had a string of loses, and he says it proves they were profitable. The problem with some of you guys is that your logic gets off track. For some of you all roads lead to binding arbitration and the Nic is right. They don't. There are other issues and most of my posts have been to counter what I see as incorrect info., like when someone says AWA was this, or US was that. But when I do most of you attack it like a pitbull going after the postman.

But you have been successful. No matter what I say, what I show you, you stick your fingers in your ears, close your eyes and go off singing "I can't hear you, I can't hear you!". So, you have shut me up.

To all westies, sorry for sinking to the childish name calling.

 

[Pi brat]

Pi, i agree with your thinking. I saw first hand how Cleary has acted, met the man, asked questions. Same goes for Streble. I formed different opinions of each. One, seemed to be a little more in touch with reality than the other. One, I felt I could work with, the other would go on my no-fly list.

What the author of that rant doesn't realize is that instead of "protecting his seniority" Cleary and Mowery are the wests best friends. I'm pretty sure that if we make it to DFR II their actions will on display.

There are tons of good people working with USAPA, especially the volunteers. Eric Jordan will make a great rep in PHL, I don't know the other guys. I wish we could separate the seniority fight from everything else and work together on everything else. But people like the rant author and some really angry westies that refuse to do it, and will continue to make that hard.

 

[Pi brat]

I haven't studied the Republic integration too much except for what has been posted on here. But didn't a 170/190 driver go on top? I thought you guys said that since AWA/US was slot by equipment, even if the MDA guys were slotted the captains would still go on the bottom. Shouldn't all of the A320 pilots go on top with that logic? Also, didn't Republic buy Midwest,park their aircraft, furlough their employees and replace their flying with 170/190s, and with Republic pilots. Now the arbitrator puts the Midwest guys towards the bottom. What about those C&Rs? I thought they were outdated and too hard to deal with going forward.You guys think that is good just because it helps you support the Nic?

At first glance this looks like a disaster for our careers. We better has some pretty good scope going forward.

 

[Ames]

Another illiterate westie. Lost money whole year 2004, only made money 1st q '05 on hedging, lost money 2nd q '05. I give up. I guess AWA had 777s and A380s on order too. Enjoy your dreamland. But, the squirt was out of line and I apologize. The frustration was getting to me.

True, AWA lost money in 2004. My statement was that going into the acquisition we had at least two successive quarters of profit. Things were improving. Your own "proof" against me does not dispute my statement. Just who is the illiterate? You can have the last word, as I am done responding to one who constantly pulls things out of his ass.

 

[Pi brat]

True, AWA lost money in 2004. My statement was that going into the acquisition we had at least two successive quarters of profit. Things were improving. Your own "proof" against me does not dispute my statement. Just who is the illiterate? You can have the last word, as I am done responding to one who constantly pulls things out of his ass.

The merger was announced May 19 2005. AWA had a 1st quarter profit only because of fuel hedging. They lost money 2nd q 2005, which would include MAY 19 2005. How does that add up? Again, a loss 4th q'04, hedging only profit 1st q '05, loss 2nd q '05. I showed you the proof, show me I'm wrong. Are you saying I made those reports up? Or are just the memories in your head right? What do I need to define for you, profit or successive?



4th quarter 2004


America West reports $49.7 million loss in fourth quarter
PHOENIX (AP) — Burdened by high fuel costs and too many cheap fares in the market, the parent company of America West Airlines on Friday reported a fourth-quarter net loss of $49.7 million.

The loss amounted to $1.38 per share for the quarter that ended Dec. 31. By comparison, the company earned $6.8 million, or 13 cents per share, in the same quarter last year.

Chairman and Chief Executive Doug Parker said America West's difficulties were a reflection of the industrywide struggle with soaring jet fuel prices and too many seats competing for too few travelers, which keeps fares low.

"At this point, it appears 2005 will be another difficult year for the industry. Fuel prices are projected to remain high and despite the significant difficulties facing many carriers, a material reduction in domestic capacity has not yet occurred," he said in a written statement.

The quarterly loss was the second straight for America West Holdings, bringing the company's annual loss to $89.9 million, or $2.50 per share.


1st quarter 2005

Holdings recorded consolidated net income of $33.6 million in the first quarter of 2005, or $0.62 per diluted share. This compares to a consolidated net loss of $1.6 million, or $0.04 per diluted share, in the first quarter of 2004. The 2005 results include $60.5 million net gains associated with the Company's fuel hedging transactions. (absent the hedging gain, they would have lost 26.9 million, but even so it's ONE quarter.


2nd quarter 2005


The new US Airways Group, Inc. today reported a second quarter 2006 profit of $305 million or $3.25 per diluted share. This compares to a net loss of $3 million or $0.20 per diluted share for the same period last year. Results for the new US Airways Group's second quarter 2006 are being compared to America West's standalone results for second quarter 2005 due to the former US Airways Group and America West Holdings Corporation merger on Sept. 27, 2005.

 

[fodase]

You don't have valid responses to my facts. Look at Ames. I showed him where AWA had a string of loses, and he says it proves they were profitable. The problem with some of you guys is that your logic gets off track. For some of you all roads lead to binding arbitration and the Nic is right. They don't. There are other issues and most of my posts have been to counter what I see as incorrect info., like when someone says AWA was this, or US was that. But when I do most of you attack it like a pitbull going after the postman.

Ok, I'll take this one fact and spelled out slowly for you. Who was in a better position on date of merger? I don't mean profitable, flying 747 etc. Date of merger which airline was in a better position period. Bankrupt airline with 1800 furloughs and 20 year fo's or not making money not bankrupt airline that was hiring with 7 year captains? Simple question, one has to be better than the other even if they are both not doing so well.

 

[fodase]

I haven't studied the Republic integration too much except for what has been posted on here. But didn't a 170/190 driver go on top? I thought you guys said that since AWA/US was slot by equipment, even if the MDA guys were slotted the captains would still go on the bottom. Shouldn't all of the A320 pilots go on top with that logic?

It is not surprising you haven't read the republic integration because the arbitrator spells out very well why the 190/170 pilots came out on top. Brace for it, BANKRUPTCY, that is right f9 bankruptcy and career expectations is the reason why. Pi you and all east pilots should look very closely at the republic award, it involved 3 unions and allegheny/mohawk was used. So what is the gold standard for pilot integrations in the usa?

 

[No Land Green]

Ok, I'll take this one fact and spelled out slowly for you. Who was in a better position on date of merger? I don't mean profitable, flying 747 etc. Date of merger which airline was in a better position period. Bankrupt airline with 1800 furloughs and 20 year fo's or not making money not bankrupt airline that was hiring with 7 year captains?

Using your logic above, I honestly believe that we should open up our Seniority List to Republic and Air Wisconsin Pilots since they are the one's who's Companies invested in the merger that put AWA/AAA together since NEITHER of the latter had ANY money........

 

[Pi brat]

Ok, I'll take this one fact and spelled out slowly for you. Who was in a better position on date of merger? I don't mean profitable, flying 747 etc. Date of merger which airline was in a better position period. Bankrupt airline with 1800 furloughs and 20 year fo's or not making money not bankrupt airline that was hiring with 7 year captains? Simple question, one has to be better than the other even if they are both not doing so well.

I think they were in and equally weak position, US just would have gotten there first, and so does Doug. I'm done.