US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Pi brat]

You mean the one where he says usair was going to liquidate? Typical east clown.

First prize award for thoughtful and eloquent post of the day. Finding your delusions are just that is painful, huh?

 

[BoeingBoy]

Since you responded to me, I will take it as you are saying I have done those things. So, a page our of your book-prove it. I've always said I agree with Doug about US, and I was making plans to go elsewhere.

The thing is, by the time Nic made his ruling, you could already tell some of his underlying premises were wrong. No matter what the financial condition of either carrier, neither went away because a group of investors saw more value in the whole than the parts and both were saved from a lesser future apart. So we were even on that score and it shouldn't have been a factor.

I wasn't responding to you or I'd have said so.

Seems that you're big on this "by the time Nic made his ruling". As someone else said, what was happening at that time was post-merger - money from the investors had come in, East had used the merger and the new money as a basis for a POR to exit bankruptcy, the airplanes that East had canceled delivery of were restored, East was recalling,etc . Nic looked at pre-merger - the PID date. As you said, anyone trying to look at the future is just guessing, so he took the two airlines as of the PID and and at the outlook for each at that point in time. The East was looking at liquidation and the west was possibly looking at a cash crunch. That's what Parker was saying at the time, what the US financial numbers were showing.

Jim

 

[Pi brat]

I wasn't responding to you or I'd have said so.

Seems that you're big on this "by the time Nic made his ruling". As someone else said, what was happening at that time was post-merger - money from the investors had come in, East had used the merger and the new money as a basis for a POR to exit bankruptcy, the airplanes that East had canceled delivery of were restored, East was recalling,etc . Nic looked at pre-merger - the PID date. As you said, anyone trying to look at the future is just guessing, so he took the two airlines as of the PID and and at the outlook for each at that point in time. The East was looking at liquidation and the west was possibly looking at a cash crunch. That's what Parker was saying at the time, what the US financial numbers were showing.

Jim

You quoted my post, wouldn't that be a logical conclusion? You are correct, most of both sides see and believe what they want to, but it is BOTH sides and you rarely point that out for the west.

Wrong. All of what happened was stated when the merger was announced. Remember Parker stating that the merger was needed for both airlines and that combined the airline would be able withstand $50 a barrel oil? He said then that both airlines needed this merger, and history shows he had been shopping for mergers for quite a while. Nic wasn't the arbitrator on May 19, 2005 and by the time he was and had come to his conclusions he was wrong. Does the PID say he has to put blinders on on ignore anything after the PID?

 

[Phoenix]

Yes, I may have to think about that more when I get into the left seat of that 330 in a couple of years...
Hmmm- who was more right? Parker or Nicolau?

Definitely something to discuss with a former furloughee sitting to my right as we cross the pond.

I can see it now... what a beautiful daydream as you stare out the left window, looking north in search of a few ice bergs, while non-reving your way high above the frigid Atlantic en route to London.

"Pst... Pst...Push your earplugs in deeper to your head.. the FA is making her way back to our row and is about to ask you if you would like to buy a lousy snack pack. P.S. If you respond to her question by screaming "GEAR UP!" she and everyone else will look at you like you are an idiot. Just ignore everyone and keep your mouth shut.. no one will know the difference."

 

[Pi brat]

I wasn't responding to you or I'd have said so.

Seems that you're big on this "by the time Nic made his ruling". As someone else said, what was happening at that time was post-merger - money from the investors had come in, East had used the merger and the new money as a basis for a POR to exit bankruptcy, the airplanes that East had canceled delivery of were restored, East was recalling,etc . Nic looked at pre-merger - the PID date. As you said, anyone trying to look at the future is just guessing, so he took the two airlines as of the PID and and at the outlook for each at that point in time. The East was looking at liquidation and the west was possibly looking at a cash crunch. That's what Parker was saying at the time, what the US financial numbers were showing.

Jim

And Jim, did you watch the Crew News before you posted that?

 

[cleardirect]

Why yes, I have heard of PID, thanks for asking. Why don't you give me a definition of it and let's see how it applies.

Good you have heard of it. I guess you just don't think that to applies to the east. Otherwise you would not have made the statement.

The thing is, by the time Nic made his ruling, you could already tell some of his underlying premises were wrong.

It did not matter when Nicolau ruled. The PID set the date prior to that. He had to make his decision with the information he had and facts as they were at the PID not when he ruled.

How about you define it. I am tired of bring the information to educate the east all the time, you do a little work. Or are you saying that a PID does not apply in our special situation.

 

[GorgeousGeorge]

I wasn't responding to you or I'd have said so.

Seems that you're big on this "by the time Nic made his ruling". As someone else said, what was happening at that time was post-merger - money from the investors had come in, East had used the merger and the new money as a basis for a POR to exit bankruptcy, the airplanes that East had canceled delivery of were restored, East was recalling,etc . Nic looked at pre-merger - the PID date. As you said, anyone trying to look at the future is just guessing, so he took the two airlines as of the PID and and at the outlook for each at that point in time. The East was looking at liquidation and the west was possibly looking at a cash crunch. That's what Parker was saying at the time, what the US financial numbers were showing.

Jim

Actually if Nic had used the PID, he would have used 270 aircraft and 3400 active pilots as the basis. If he had used that date, those numbers, the under staffing, and the fact that the MDA pilots were mainline, who knows how it would have turned out.

He actually picked a date in 2007 for fleet and staffing numbers, disregarding the PID but on the flip side refused to acknowledge that half the East furloughed pilots had returned due to attrition and all were being recalled.

Financial strength was returning to the industry and had the merger not happened, US Airways would have looked like the comeback kid yet again. It was apparent in 2005 and most certainly in 2006 and 2007, that the depth of concessions the East had given along with improving conditions in the airline industry and the core of its network is what was driving profits for the now combined airline. It would have seen that financial improvement independently before the end of 2005 as the company was sitting on 2 billion in annual concessions from it employees going into the economic turn around. If you read the dispatchers seniority arbitration award, you would know this and see how a thorough arbitrator did his job.

 

[Pi brat]

How about you define it. I am tired of bring the information to educate the east all the time, you do a little work. Or are you saying that a PID does not apply in our special situation.

I didn't bring it up, you did. I've educated you on about everything we have talked about, your turn.

 

[psw737]

Heard an interesting rumor last week while at work. Involved a merger with the west operation and jetblue and or virgin america hooking up and the east operation and hawaiian hooking up. Sounded interesting and thought I would post it and see if anyone else is hearing anything regarding this????

 

[Ames]

How about....................it didn't happen at all..............

No. It did. One guy was fired and one real jerk is still here.

 

[Ames]

Why yes, I have heard of PID, thanks for asking. Why don't you give me a definition of it and let's see how it applies.

He did give you a definition. How did that escape you/

 

[Pi brat]

He did give you a definition. How did that escape you/

A rare treat, Ames is right. He did give me a definition, so let me rephrase. How about an analysis of what Policy Implementation Date means as it relates to the arbitrator's job?

 

[Pi brat]

No. It did. One guy was fired and one real jerk is still here.

Was it on company property? If not why did the company deem it necessary to fire the guy? Doug seems to think that now if it was not on company property, it's none of their business. Maybe because it was a lot more than a push? Just wondering.

 

[CactusPilot1]

Heard an interesting rumor last week while at work. Involved a merger with the west operation and jetblue and or virgin america hooking up and the east operation and hawaiian hooking up. Sounded interesting and thought I would post it and see if anyone else is hearing anything regarding this????

Our best clue, (if you believe what Kirby and Parker are saying), is to listen to the opening statements of the CLT and PHX crew news. I have not heard the rumor you are speaking of.

 

[Pi brat]

Just be clear, I'm not saying Nic should have read a crystal ball and said AWA would have not been around. I'm saying that there was plenty of evidence that AWA would face struggles going forward and was not really in all that great of shape in May 2005. Both companies needed the merger, it probably saved them both, so we were even in that respect.