US Pilots Labor Discussion

[nic4us]

What's wrong boys? Did no one watch the PHX crew news? Or are you wishing that guy hadn't asked the question? Parker's statements just go to show that one of St. Nics major premises was wrong. From the Nic award, page 4:

"Moreover, the financial future of US Airways was not comparable to, or as bright as that of America West."

Looks like you got that wrong too, George.

Just got done watching the CN.

If we are going to take Mr. Parker's word from what he says in Crew News sessions, and I am one who is actually inclined to believe what he says in these sessions is truely genuine. So, lets assume Parker is 100% correct in what he said, and what he has said in the past Crew News sessions as well.

If that is the case then once again Nicolau got it 100% correct, especially in your quoted statement.

Nicolau's statement that the West had a brighter future is indeed true. Parker has said in past Crew News sessions that AAA would have liquidated without the merger. That would have happened in 2005. Now Parker says AWA would have been driven out, first to bankruptcy perhaps sometime in 2006, with an end coming with the fuel spike and economic collapse sometime in 2008-2009 timeframe.

So, absent the merger the east would have been almost immediately unemployed while the West would have enjoyed at least three more years of employment.

Further, Mr Parker's statements about the east liquidation are based on the facts known at the time of the merger, the same facts Nicolau based his statement on. While the presumptions about the West are based on post merger, post Nicolau economic conditions, that Nicolau could not have forecasted.

Nicolau did not say the AWA's future was bright, he just said it was much "brighter" than AAA's. Which at the time of the merger was a known fact, and at the time of the arbitration was even more aparent.

Now, if you are trying to make the arguement that,,,,hey, we should all be glad the merger happened, and we are all still employed, I am with you 100%. But, taking something Parker says, almost six years post merger, about what may have become of AWA 3 to 4 years post absent a merger, and somehow claiming that Nic got it wrong, is way far fetched, because you are mixing known facts with future hypotheticals.

 

[nic4us]

dupe

 

[fodase]

What's wrong boys? Did no one watch the PHX crew news? Or are you wishing that guy hadn't asked the question? Parker's statements just go to show that one of St. Nics major premises was wrong. From the Nic award, page 4:

"Moreover, the financial future of US Airways was not comparable to, or as bright as that of America West."

Looks like you got that wrong too, George.

You mean the one where he says usair was going to liquidate? Typical east clown.

 

[nic4us]

Another crew news tidbit for you east posters who were wondering.

The question regarding a dual standard because a West pilot was fired because of an incident that occured at an ALPA meeting in IAH, while nothing is done for a similar incident at usapa HQ.

I will probably catch grief from West posters for saying this, but there is a world of difference in the two occurances, and frankly, I do not see a double standard. Reading the police report that was filed in the CLT incident, this is not the same type of thing. The only similarity is as Parker pointed out, "didn't happen on company property."

 

[mrbreeze]

So which is it? You guys sacrificed to survive? Or is it that big bad ALPA forced you into LOA93 against your will?

You can't have it both ways. You easties sure like to talk out of both sides of your mouths.

The bottom line is that we have that much invested in this mess regardless of how we got there.

 

[CactusPilot1]

Another crew news tidbit for you east posters who were wondering.

The question regarding a dual standard because a West pilot was fired because of an incident that occured at an ALPA meeting in IAH, while nothing is done for a similar incident at usapa HQ.

I will probably catch grief from West posters for saying this, but there is a world of difference in the two occurances, and frankly, I do not see a double standard. Reading the police report that was filed in the CLT incident, this is not the same type of thing. The only similarity is as Parker pointed out, "didn't happen on company property."

I don't think any West posters should give you any grief for seeing it differently or not towing the line.

You don't have to think like an Usapian.

 

[prechilill]

What's wrong boys? Did no one watch the PHX crew news? Or are you wishing that guy hadn't asked the question? Parker's statements just go to show that one of St. Nics major premises was wrong. From the Nic award, page 4:

"Moreover, the financial future of US Airways was not comparable to, or as bright as that of America West."

Looks like you got that wrong too, George.

Yes, I may have to think about that more when I get into the left seat of that 330 in a couple of years...
Hmmm- who was more right? Parker or Nicolau?

Definitely something to discuss with a former furloughee sitting to my right as we cross the pond.

 

[Pilot692]

Another crew news tidbit for you east posters who were wondering.

The question regarding a dual standard because a West pilot was fired because of an incident that occured at an ALPA meeting in IAH, while nothing is done for a similar incident at usapa HQ.

I will probably catch grief from West posters for saying this, but there is a world of difference in the two occurances, and frankly, I do not see a double standard. Reading the police report that was filed in the CLT incident, this is not the same type of thing. The only similarity is as Parker pointed out, "didn't happen on company property."

How about....................it didn't happen at all..............

 

[Pi brat]

Nothing here other than the irony. Whenever Parker says something the East likes it's like the words were inscribed on stone tablets brought down from the mountain top, but let him say something that doesn't fit the East arguments it's ignored. The reverse is often true too. Everyone has their version of "truth" and won't be distracted by facts.

Jim

Since you responded to me, I will take it as you are saying I have done those things. So, a page our of your book-prove it. I've always said I agree with Doug about US, and I was making plans to go elsewhere.

The thing is, by the time Nic made his ruling, you could already tell some of his underlying premises were wrong. No matter what the financial condition of either carrier, neither went away because a group of investors saw more value in the whole than the parts and both were saved from a lesser future apart. So we were even on that score and it shouldn't have been a factor.

 

[Barrister]

You're right. I shouldn't care about a smoking hole in the ground due to your "safety" concerns. But your company and your passengers (who probably read this forum) sure do.

You should be more careful. Didn't one of your co-workers get fired several years ago for claiming on a public forum that planes would fall out of the sky and endanger the flying public if your demands were not met. Sound the same to me. You're saying that if you have to fly with a west pilot as your captain, then the safety record of USAirways will be in jeopardy.

That's pretty bold.

What I claimed on a public forum is that you are not
who you say you are. You show up here under false
pretenses CONCERNED ONLY ABOUT TRUTH AND JUSTICE
So tell us....WHY DO YOU CARE???

NICDOA
NPJB

 

[Pi brat]

Yes, I may have to think about that more when I get into the left seat of that 330 in a couple of years...
Hmmm- who was more right? Parker or Nicolau?

Definitely something to discuss with a former furloughee sitting to my right as we cross the pond.

Well, the IRO does sit in the left seat while the captain is taking his/her break, so enjoy the view, just don't get used to it.

Don't let this little new flash get you down pre, a lot of your guys were out in left field with you on this one. The fact that your company was not the power house you had believed it was is no reflection on you. You arrogant, condescending and mostly inaccurate posts are a better mirror.

Have a great day!

 

[Pi brat]

Just got done watching the CN.

If we are going to take Mr. Parker's word from what he says in Crew News sessions, and I am one who is actually inclined to believe what he says in these sessions is truely genuine. So, lets assume Parker is 100% correct in what he said, and what he has said in the past Crew News sessions as well.

If that is the case then once again Nicolau got it 100% correct, especially in your quoted statement.

Nicolau's statement that the West had a brighter future is indeed true. Parker has said in past Crew News sessions that AAA would have liquidated without the merger. That would have happened in 2005. Now Parker says AWA would have been driven out, first to bankruptcy perhaps sometime in 2006, with an end coming with the fuel spike and economic collapse sometime in 2008-2009 timeframe.

So, absent the merger the east would have been almost immediately unemployed while the West would have enjoyed at least three more years of employment.

Further, Mr Parker's statements about the east liquidation are based on the facts known at the time of the merger, the same facts Nicolau based his statement on. While the presumptions about the West are based on post merger, post Nicolau economic conditions, that Nicolau could not have forecasted.

Nicolau did not say the AWA's future was bright, he just said it was much "brighter" than AAA's. Which at the time of the merger was a known fact, and at the time of the arbitration was even more aparent.

Now, if you are trying to make the arguement that,,,,hey, we should all be glad the merger happened, and we are all still employed, I am with you 100%. But, taking something Parker says, almost six years post merger, about what may have become of AWA 3 to 4 years post absent a merger, and somehow claiming that Nic got it wrong, is way far fetched, because you are mixing known facts with future hypotheticals.

nic4us,

Thanks for the well thought out and non-condescending post. All of this is just our opinions, but I have to disagree with you on a few points.

I would rather have been looking for a job in 2005 vs. 2008-09, so I don't see that as a bright spot.

Yes, hindsight is always easier, but by the time Nic was in the picture, some of his assumptions were already showing to be incorrect. The positive benefits of the merger were showing up, which helped both groups, then. I think that in this business, trying to say anyone is a winner or loser more than a few years out is impossible, and should be taken off the table. If one company had shut down and you pick the pieces up, maybe it's a factor, but that was not the case with us. Both companies needed this merger, and so far this merger has kept most of both groups employed, so we are even on that. What has been undeniable in this merger is that vast majority of what little route expansion has been available came from what was the east network.

So if you take the who-saved-who away, what else is there? What did AWA have to gain from a merger? Access to east coast bases for those that might want to live there. Access to widebody flying. Access to Trans-Atlantic flying. A biggie....mixing with an older pilot group that would be gone, would vacate those seats and leave the AWA guys senior for years. A chance to negotiate a better contract than they ever had by being part of a larger, potentially more profitable airline. Overall a bigger company with a larger scope of flying.

What did US gain? A company that could now make Hawaii flying profitable. A west coast base for those that live there. More western flying and a chance to negotiate a better contract than they ever had by being part of a larger, potentially more profitable airline and to do so earlier than their previous contract allowed.

From where I sit, in the long run the west had a more to gain from this merger.

 

[cleardirect]

Since you responded to me, I will take it as you are saying I have done those things. So, a page our of your book-prove it. I've always said I agree with Doug about US, and I was making plans to go elsewhere.

The thing is, by the time Nic made his ruling, you could already tell some of his underlying premises were wrong. No matter what the financial condition of either carrier, neither went away because a group of investors saw more value in the whole than the parts and both were saved from a lesser future apart. So we were even on that score and it shouldn't have been a factor.

You have heard of "Policy Initiation Date (PID)" you know the date that is established when the merger takes effect? That way it can be determined what is PRE-merger and what is POST merger.

When Nicolau ruled what was happening was POST merger he followed the rules and decided what happened at the PID. You guy do have integrity and understand the rule of law correct? Merger policy states a PID is determined. You would not want to violate the rules or ignore them right?

Never mind I forgot who I was talking to. East pilots. Rules don't apply to you guys only what the majority of east pilots wants is what matters.

 

[Pi brat]

You have heard of "Policy Initiation Date (PID)" you know the date that is established when the merger takes effect? That way it can be determined what is PRE-merger and what is POST merger.

When Nicolau ruled what was happening was POST merger he followed the rules and decided what happened at the PID. You guy do have integrity and understand the rule of law correct? Merger policy states a PID is determined. You would not want to violate the rules or ignore them right?

Never mind I forgot who I was talking to. East pilots. Rules don't apply to you guys only what the majority of east pilots wants is what matters.

Why yes, I have heard of PID, thanks for asking. Why don't you give me a definition of it and let's see how it applies.

 

[Pi brat]

"Paging Aquaman, Aquaman you have a message on the white courtesy phone"

Hey Aquaman. Wasn't it you that claimed the east was overstaffed on captains. As I'm enjoying my first day free of flying in a while, and won't be answering any POTAs, I pulled up the available reserves. In CLT,PHL, and DCA we have a grand total of 4 available today. Wow! what overstaffing! Don't sneeze anyone. Quick, call resource planning and come to the rescue Aquaman!