US Pilots Labor Discussion

[N924PS]

Nicolau could just have easily rendered a DOH list incorporating the very same reasonable and equitable points you mention. So......DOH would be just as fair as the NIC.

Point well taken.

What if USAPA could craft a DOH list as you describe? Think it would meet the test and avoid DFRII?

And just so you know, there is NO WAY the Conditions/Restrictions as written are reasonable and equitable to the West.

 

[exB717Flyer]

What was the probability of compromise before USAPA was formed? Do we remember those days? I do.

Rice Committee, Blue Ribbon Commission, Wye River. Lot's of compromises from the west profferred there, wasn't there? Why didn't we just take those generous compromises and forget about USAPA?

Oh, that's right. There were no compromises forthcoming from the west despite ALPA's best efforts to secure them.

What's the difference between "compromise" and "concession"? One involves only one side giving and the other involves both sides giving. I trust you know which word matches which definition. If the East had offered the West something of value I'm sure it was duly considered. But we both know that didn't happen. The East only wanted concessions from the West and held the proverbial gun to our heads.

Now...does that give you any inkling why there is a USAPA?

No, it doesn't. Had Bradford not found that upstanding guy $eham to tell him changing unions would allow avoiding binding arbitration y'all wouldn't have USAPA'ed.

"Shot itself in the nose to spite its face." Notwithstanding the amusing mixed metaphor, "shot itself in the face" still remains to be seen. There was no other choice. We had enough of ALPAs decades of nonsense even before this matter appeared. ALPA could not solve it, so what did we have to lose?

Your integrity. You know what they say, there's two sides to every silver lining.

 

[exB717Flyer]

yeah I knew you wouldn't answer a basic question... the answer is not irrelevant... The upgrade would be delayed by many years for FO's on the east using the NIC.

Okay, you want a straight answer here you go: The East FO's upgrades will be delayed by the Nicolau list by five years. No, make that ten years. Ten years, that's my final answer. Do I hear fifteen? Okay, I admit it, I have no idea and I don't care. But what I think doesn't matter. What matters is what George Nicolau ruled and he ruled that whatever detrimental effect to the Easts' careers his list created was overshadowed by the benefit to your careers created by the merger. So yes, the answer is 100% irrelevant no matter how much it matters to you personally.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Nicolau could just have easily rendered a DOH list incorporating the very same reasonable and equitable points you mention. So......DOH would be just as fair as the NIC.

Perhaps, but that wasn't the point I was addressing. I asked the poster to show how Nicolau didn't use a well-reasoned and fair approach to the SLI based on the contents of the Award itself. Nicolau could have done a lot of things, but what the Arbitration Board issued was an award that met the SLI criteria and was the fairest solution they could devise. Anyone actually reading the award would be hard pressed to say that it wasn't well-reasoned, just as I had previously stated.

BTW, the point I left out is that Nicolau has the final say (retains jurisdiction) on the award and any changes that both groups may request of him. So, the only way to legally change the list is to go through George Nicolau. I'm sure Cleary and USAPA have him on speed dial by now.

 

[mikey60]

What was US Air's exit strategy to exit certain bankruptcy prior to Parker coming to the rescue?

I can tell you my life was a lot better before Dougie cast the lifeline out. He drug the carcass to Tempe with some expectation that he had become the CEO of a "Legacy" carrier. Instead, he is the CEO of big friggin mess almost 6 years later and profiting from our misery.

To make things better, an association is formed to cheat a process rather than representing ALL the pilots as a bargaining agent. Then it sues the pilots it is elected to represent and you wonder why Leonidas has so much support.

Big mistake suing our pilots and trying to cheat an agreed process of seniority integration.

Shame!

While your not doing anything tonight go back and read the last 950 posts . There is a considerable amount of information concerning your topic and you might learn something. To tell you the truth we and I mean both sides have pounded this so many times that your just wasting bandwidth.

 

[Barrister]

What was US Air's exit strategy to exit certain bankruptcy prior to Parker coming to the rescue?

I can tell you my life was a lot better before Dougie cast the lifeline out. He drug the carcass to Tempe with some expectation that he had become the CEO of a "Legacy" carrier. Instead, he is the CEO of big friggin mess almost 6 years later and profiting from our misery.

To make things better, an association is formed to cheat a process rather than representing ALL the pilots as a bargaining agent. Then it sues the pilots it is elected to represent and you wonder why Leonidas has so much support.

Big mistake suing our pilots and trying to cheat an agreed process of seniority integration.

Shame!

Well actually newbie the mess is that you haven't been able to jump over people who have been here 20yrs
longer than you. We are running a good company just not being paid a fair wage to do it.

NICDOA
NPJB

 

[Barrister]

Okay, you want a straight answer here you go: The East FO's upgrades will be delayed by the Nicolau list by five years. No, make that ten years. Ten years, that's my final answer. Do I hear fifteen? Okay, I admit it, I have no idea and I don't care. But what I think doesn't matter. What matters is what George Nicolau ruled and he ruled that whatever detrimental effect to the Easts' careers his list created was overshadowed by the benefit to your careers created by the merger. So yes, the answer is 100% irrelevant no matter how much it matters to you personally.

Nice reply ....kinda spells it out without the sugar coating.....FOs lose the left seat go to right seat
and lose pension and is rewarded by NIC by letting new hire go senior to them. Thanks for pointing that
out to us fence sitters HA!!!

NICDOA
NPJB

 

[CactusPilot1]

While your not doing anything tonight go back and read the last 950 posts . There is a considerable amount of information concerning your topic and you might learn something. To tell you the truth we and I mean both sides have pounded this so many times that your just wasting bandwidth.

I appreciate the suggestion, Mikey but I already sat through the Wake trial and Judge Silver's court last week. There is not much more that I can learn from 900 posts than I already heard in court. B)

 

[CactusPilot1]

Well actually newbie the mess is that you haven't been able to jump over people who have been here 20yrs
longer than you. We are running a good company just not being paid a fair wage to do it.

NICDOA
NPJB

Well, this " newbie" knows that if you shake someone's hand and agree to a process, you should not expect to get stabbed in the back.

 

[Barrister]

****************************

putting a new hire ahead of a 1989 hire who had 12 years of active service and who would of greatly benefited from the attrition the EAST brought was a windfall.

Please spare yourself all the words it really doesn't take that many to explain it.

Actually, it was new hires....way more than one.... who went above MANY 17 year never furloughed East pilots.

NICDOA
NPJB

 

[end_of_alpa]

CJ,

US Air was in a lot worse situation than HP in 2005. We had 6-7 year upgrades, hiring hundreds of pilots to the stagnation we face today. It is of no coincidence that priorities shifted East.

I think someone benefited, it was not the West or ALPA.

Henry Hubschman

We lost a friend and a very good man this week. Henry Hubschman, the former chairman and CEO of GE Capital Aviation Services (GECAS) died of cancer at the age of 63. Henry built GECAS into the world's largest aircraft leasing firm and was one of the most influential people in the history of commercial aviation. He also played an enormous role in the success of US Airways and for that we are extremely grateful.

Henry was instrumental in helping America West receive a government loan guarantee after 9/11. He aggressively supported our application with members of the Federal Reserve and the Treasury department, bringing the full support of GE to our cause. Without Henry's hard work, I do not believe America West would have received a loan guarantee and without that guarantee, America West would not have survived.
America West did survive, though, and was there to help US Airways avoid liquidation in 2005 through our historic merger. Henry led GECAS' support of that merger, which enabled us to attract capital from a number of other sources and fund the transaction. More recently, Henry and GECAS played a role in helping us raise nearly $900 million in late 2008, which allowed us to manage through another difficult time in aviation history.

As you review that history, I think it's fair to say that none of us would be working here if weren't for Henry Hubschman.

Of course, Henry didn't do these things out of benevolence to US Airways; he was a smart and tough-minded GE executive who made these decisions because he believed they were in the best interest of GE, which leases airplanes and sells engines. However, he took the time to understand the drivers behind our circumstances and had the foresight to understand what was needed to address them.

Most importantly, he had faith in our team. He believed we could do what we said were going to do, while our competitors and some skeptics were suggesting we could not. I have always worked very hard to make sure we validated that confidence - largely because that's our job - but also because I didn't want to let Henry down.

Thanks to all of you, we have proven him right and I know he appreciated your hard work. Please take a little time to pause and thank Henry this week and send your positive thoughts and prayers to his wife, Joanne, and their four children.

Thank you, Henry, from all of US. Safe travels, my friend.

Doug

 

[East Hole]

CJ,

US Air was in a lot worse situation than HP in 2005. We had 6-7 year upgrades, hiring hundreds of pilots to the stagnation we face today. It is of no coincidence that priorities shifted East.

I think someone benefited, it was not the West or ALPA.

Its not reality to think upgrades would last forever at that pace with or without the east. Priorities shifted east because that is the future of this airline duh! How bout the 24% of the east flying transfered west. US Air was in worse shape in 2005 than the West and the West is in worst shape in 2011 oops. East went through some bad years, but the core airline is much more viable than the West long term. Not making this stuff up its called reality...

 

[exB717Flyer]

Nice reply ....kinda spells it out without the sugar coating.....FOs lose the left seat go to right seat
and lose pension and is rewarded by NIC by letting new hire go senior to them. Thanks for pointing that
out to us fence sitters HA!!!

So, let me see if I understand you correctly: you disagree with the Nicolau list. I'm shocked, shocked to hear that. I had no idea!
My point being: it's irrelevant what you or I think. What we thought was presented by our respective Merger Committees to the arbitration panel and a decision was rendered. Men with integrity accept the consequences of their decisions even when doesn't meet their expectations.

 

[doh nogo]

America West did survive, though, and was there to help US Airways avoid liquidation in 2005 through our historic merger.
Doug

Thanks for clearing that up.

 

[mrbreeze]

America West did survive, though, and was there to help US Airways avoid liquidation in 2005 through our historic merger.
Doug

Thanks for clearing that up.

Parker...."I often say things that I don't mean."