US Pilots Labor Discussion

[GuntherA320]

Can't you take the position numbers listed by Equp/Base and add up all the capt positions in Each bid package?

That would at least give you the "Active" number of capts on the line. Compare that to the bid that just came out, and see what the numbers show.

Yes,

You can do that. Bringing up Chief Pilots and Check Airman has nothing to do with the ACTUAL pilots flying the line. The number of Captains and F/O actively flying is in the bid packet. Jim is just trying to artfully dodge the question. He knows Pi Brat is right but doesn't want to say that.

Jim is trying to add in Mgt Pilots, LTD, and pilots on leave. If you do that, it inflates the number. Pi Brat is correct that the number of pilots that are actually flying the line are less now than in 2005.

 

[BoeingBoy]

I understand and I agree, but as I said, doesn't the bid announcement kind of distill all those numbers into a number that shows who is flying the airplanes? If you add in the rest it would inflate the numbers on both ends. From your viewing of those two bid announcements, do you not see a smaller east pilot group vs. the growth prechill claimed?

Just looking at the two headcount figures, yes but that's where pre-merger agreements and the training dept people, etc come in - is Prechill is talking about East vs West Captain numbers and is there a difference in how non-flying captains are schedules between East and West? If you look at the East bids East was in a shrinking mode in 2005/2006. West, on the other hand, was in growth mode - which stopped when the merger was announced.

One thing is certain - you don't fly 7A332's, 25 E190's and 3 757's (especially when the 757 fleet is flying more TA) without more line pilots than you had before those planes came. We could argue what exact head count to use, but I look at it the same as East secured debt - it didn't disappear on May 19 2005 - it stayed on the books. Likewise with the airplane agreements - they were still valid and enforceable after May 19 2005, after the actual merger in September 2005, and in the 1st quarter of 2006. Unfortunately for West, their new airplane deliveries got rolled into the East orders that had no delivery dates and with the new delivery dates pushed back from when those airplanes were originally scheduled to arrive.

Jim

PS - East did have over 6000 pilots 2 times before the merger IIRC - 1990 and I think 2001, before furloughing about 25% of the pilots each time.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Just to review, this is what prechil said on page 751:

Didn't see this before posting my last answer. So prechill is looking at seniority list numbers while the headcount on the East bid package only shows the number of active line pilots. An apples to oranges comparison.

Jim

 

[BoeingBoy]

Jim is just trying to artfully dodge the question. He knows Pi Brat is right but doesn't want to say that.

Jim is trying to add in Mgt Pilots, LTD, and pilots on leave. If you do that, it inflates the number.

No, the discussion was about the number of Captains and that isn't given in the bid packet. That's why you need to add in the others to get the actual number of Captaiins, then do the same on the West side if their bid packets treat non-flying Captains the same as the East.

In other words, as it turns out, Pi Brat and prechill were talking about two different things - Pi was using the bid packet numbers for Captains while prechill was using the seniority list number. So both or neither could be right. Only when both are looking at the same thing can you really tell.

Jim

 

[GuntherA320]

No, the discussion was about the number of Captains and that isn't given in the bid packet. That's why you need to add in the others to get the actual number of Captaiins, then do the same on the West side if their bid packets treat non-flying Captains the same as the East.

In other words, as it turns out, Pi Brat and prechill were talking about two different things - Pi was using the bid packet numbers for Captains while prechill was using the seniority list number. So both or neither could be right. Only when both are looking at the same thing can you really tell.

Jim

Jim,

You can always find a way to spin a discussion. I will give you that. Pi Brat all along has said that the east has fewer actual LINE PILOTS today than we did in 2005. You are making this a completely different discussion trying to spin it so that you don't have to answer the question. Simple question Jim.....Does the east have more LINE PILOTS (Actual pilots flying the line) today vs 2005??? Can you answer that simple question by looking at the Bid Packet. We all know the answer. It's ok. You can say it. Prechill said all the growth has gone east. If we had growth, wouldn't we need MORE LINE PILOTS to cover the growth? Simple, simple questions.

 

[Pi brat]

No, the discussion was about the number of Captains and that isn't given in the bid packet. That's why you need to add in the others to get the actual number of Captaiins, then do the same on the West side if their bid packets treat non-flying Captains the same as the East.

In other words, as it turns out, Pi Brat and prechill were talking about two different things - Pi was using the bid packet numbers for Captains while prechill was using the seniority list number. So both or neither could be right. Only when both are looking at the same thing can you really tell.

Jim

Jim, Jim , Jim................you just can't do it, can you? You can't say a west pilot was wrong. I have no idea what prechil was thinking, only what she said and I used numbers that I have available to me to show there is no way she was right, whatever she was talking about. Look at the quote and tell me that those words can be true! If she was saying that 700 guys that weren't on the property on May 19, 2005, maybe so(still a little high I think), but so what? Almost all of them were on the east seniority list and just took the positions that they were waiting for to be vacated. Here is what she SAID again: "...........forget about is any growth flying, a benefit the east has been enjoying tremendously since day one of the merger. Look at their seniority list, how much has it grown since May 2005? About 700 numbers!"

Yes, it takes bodies to fly the planes that were delivered east. Does it take any west bodies to fly those new A321s that were delivered west? Why yes, it does, but that doesn't mean the west GREW, does it? No, they haven't they have shrunk, just like the east has. The east took the new 757s, A330s,and EMB-190s but returned more hulls than they have received since May 2005. You use the argument that they had aircraft on order, but as you said that didn't matter after May 19, 2005 as everything changed on that day. We all had a bunch of Airbus hulls coming the end of last year and this year, but are they coming? No they have been deferred, just like any AWA order on the books could have been without a merger.

Did Piedmont grow by retiring more airplanes than the took delivery of????????

 

[Pi brat]

Jim,

You can always find a way to spin a discussion. I will give you that. Pi Brat all along has said that the east has fewer actual LINE PILOTS today than we did in 2005. You are making this a completely different discussion trying to spin it so that you don't have to answer the question. Simple question Jim.....Does the east have more LINE PILOTS (Actual pilots flying the line) today vs 2005??? Can you answer that simple question by looking at the Bid Packet. We all know the answer. It's ok. You can say it. Prechill said all the growth has gone east. If we had growth, wouldn't we need MORE LINE PILOTS to cover the growth? Simple, simple questions.

Gunther, why do we try?

 

[sumadarson]

Doug Parker answered a west pilots question during a meeting which explains this situation best.

"I thought judge nicolau already settled this." Doug, knowing full well that Mr Nicolau, was not a judge, but a neutral party in an internal union process, chuckled and answered;

"Did you ever hear about the Addington?"

This garbage talk about how many of this and that lately is a waste of time. The last two pieces of the puzzle that parker needs to walk away with money for himself and his steven wolf inspired management is the inevitable loss of the loa 93 and declaratory judgement. This will happen in short order. He will have his payday soon.

No one wants or will accept this mess as a whole. With america west fragmented out to mesa or Frontier, Virgin America and East pilots with some other company, out of the picture in five or less years, a deal is a certainty in the near future.

You can sit by and listen to alpa shills and west pilot outhouse lawyers while you write your checks, or control your last chance to tell doug what you think, you hold the key in your hand.

You can keep the pen in your hand and keep writing the checks west or use a key in it, your choice.

The nicolau seemed too good to be true, did it not? It was.

 

[biggie smalls]

My opinion on that is biggie smalls is a Cleary messenger boy with a new handle.
[/quote]


Is that all you can come up with, USAPA fights for pilots, unlike the West who just keep stealing money from their own for lawsuits that go nowhere..
The few rotten apples is killing the entire barrel in the west

 

[BoeingBoy]

No spin - as Pi said, prechill was looking at seniority list numbers and all Pi and I have is bid packet head count. Apples to oranges.

But to answer your question - the headcount for June 2005 is 2804 vs 2592 for March 2011 and 2605 for May 2011. But prechill is looking at seniority list numbers and not line pilot numbers, so he may be right too. Do you have the East seniority list numbers for May 2005 and May 2011?

Of course, the TA defines "growth airplanes" and the company was supposed to establish bridge training while the two MEC's (now one BPR) determines the "fair and equitable" distribution of any aircraft deliveries not in in attachment B of the TA. So "growth airplanes" isn't "well, look at how many airplanes we lost on the East so those aren't "growth airplanes".

Jim

 

[BoeingBoy]

Jim, Jim , Jim................you just can't do it, can you? You can't say a west pilot was wrong.

Nonsense. You tell me how many pilots were on the East seniority list on May 19 2005 and May 1 2011, then. After all, it was you that said that prechill was talking about the number on the seniority list and not line pilot headcount.

All I've said is that you can't compare seniority list numbers with bid head count numbers - apples and oranges. I thought at one time there was an East seniority list on wings but looked and can't find it (I think it was a 2008 seniority list anyway).

Jim

 

[CallawayGolf]

Doug Parker answered a west pilots question during a meeting which explains this situation best.

"I thought judge nicolau already settled this." Doug, knowing full well that Mr Nicolau, was not a judge, but a neutral party in an internal union process, chuckled and answered;

"Did you ever hear about the Addington?"

This garbage talk about how many of this and that lately is a waste of time. The last two pieces of the puzzle that parker needs to walk away with money for himself and his steven wolf inspired management is the inevitable loss of the loa 93 and declaratory judgement. This will happen in short order. He will have his payday soon.

No one wants or will accept this mess as a whole. With america west fragmented out to mesa or Frontier, Virgin America and East pilots with some other company, out of the picture in five or less years, a deal is a certainty in the near future.

You can sit by and listen to alpa shills and west pilot outhouse lawyers while you write your checks, or control your last chance to tell doug what you think, you hold the key in your hand.

You can keep the pen in your hand and keep writing the checks west or use a key in it, your choice.

The nicolau seemed too good to be true, did it not? It was.

You just can’t help but make stuff up no matter how nonsensical it may be. How long have you guys been predicting fragmentation? That’s alternate universe kind of thinking and certainly completely out of character for Doug, Scott and the BOD of US. In fact, if fragmentation was on the agenda, why would the Company file the DJ? If there was no intent to negotiate a JCBA why would Management force the NIC vs. DOH seniority list? Further, if USAPA wins the longest of shot grievances on the LOA93 issue, who would want to take the east in a fragmentation scenario anyway? No major is going to take that on so if you are hoping for LOA84 rates & fragmentation you are truly out of your mind.

The good news is that your whole premise regarding winning LOA93, the DJ (NIC decision), and fragmentation are very far off from what is most likely to happen. We should know by now that judges and arbitrators can be capricious and oftentimes hold little congruity with the law (usually leftist, liberal judges) so anything can happen, but USAPA and the east are far more likely to suffer catastrophic losses when these decisions come out.

BTW – how is that lawsuit coming against (whoever and who knows?) for pilots receiving a mailing to their homes? That was all the rage a while back and there were abundant predictions that heads were going to roll according to the east. I haven’t heard much of that bluster in quite some time? Could it be that the east failed to comprehend the situation once again? It is what you are best at isn't it?

 

[Piedmont1984]

Did anything unusual happen at USAPA's offices today? Something you would usually see at a hockey game.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Gunther, why do we try?

And you're the one that pointed out that you and prechill are looking at two different things. Instead of blasting me - after all, you hate people not knowing what you're thinking - you should know that you are comparing apples with prechill's oranges.

And if I mis-remembered the start of this discussion (I thought it started yesterday with the number of Captains) I apologize - something no one on the East ever does from their lofty perch of knowing it all.

Jim

 

[prechilill]

Nonsense. You tell me how many pilots were on the East seniority list on May 19 2005 and May 1 2011, then. After all, it was you that said that prechill was talking about the number on the seniority list and not line pilot headcount.

All I've said is that you can't compare seniority list numbers with bid head count numbers - apples and oranges. I thought at one time there was an East seniority list on wings but looked and can't find it (I think it was a 2008 seniority list anyway).

Jim

Jim,
You are correct that the data is difficult to get and going straight to bid sheets is misleading- the numbers will not match the amount of training activity. The best way of approaching this is to look at how many people have gone through indoc on the east since the PID- you cannot get this info from head counts, if you did the company wouldn't have hired anyone. I estimate the east has put about 450 bodies through indoc below Monda (MDA pilots and new hires since the merger) based upon his position in the system in 2008. My 500 to 700 estimate was high.
Again, this is the best estimate. The fleet minimums number is elevated looking at the airframe flying hours in May, 2005 (i.e. on the eve of liquidation there wasn't as much utilization of equipment).

EDIT: It is amazing how Collelo has gone from furloughed to 767 first office in three years- that alone is pretty indicative of the growth in flying on the east.