US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Pi brat]

Hmmm. Your post doesn't make any sense because it was explained to you already. You see, when you add thirty something airplanes you need carbon life forms called pilots to operate the NEW equipment. I understand you may feel entitled to all growth, all upgrades and all expansion, but the point is you cannot conveniently ignore it when one sides gets everything and the other side gets furloughs.

Just when I thought you couldn't get any more stupid. Here's a hint............how many hulls left the fleet? Didn't need any carbon life forms for them any more, right?

 

[Pi brat]

A couple more observations from east Bid announcement of May 2005 vs. Jan 2011:

It shows that on June 1st 2005 there were 1331 active 737, A320, 757/767 and A330 captain positions. The latest bid shows that on March 1st 2011 there are 1112 737, A320,757/767 and A330 active captain positions, a drop of about 16.5%. Is that growth? They are offset by 80 EMB captains(sort of, since the EMB190 C/O pay is only slighltly higher than A320 F/O rates and if you are on reserve it would be a pay cut).

I have assumed the west shrinkage was more. Has the west had a greater that 16% decrease in captain positions?

 

[nic4us]

I have assumed the west shrinkage was more. Has the west had a greater that 16% decrease in captain positions?

I do not know the total number of Captains,(i.e. how many are on LTD, in management and training etc.), however, in the most recent vacancy/displacement/recall bid, the projected outcome is a grand total of 640 A320 and 757 Captains. The 737 fleet is going away completely.

In 2005, when we had 1884 pilots, we had over 1000 Captains total. If you add a fudge factor of say even as high as 200 Captains in management on LTD etc, the grand total of West Captains would be 840, or 160 less than the 1000, or exactly 16%.

I am still trying to figure out how come we only need 640 Captain positions to operate 122 aircraft. what is the staffing formula around here?

 

[cleardirect]

A couple more observations from east Bid announcement of May 2005 vs. Jan 2011:

It shows that on June 1st 2005 there were 1331 active 737, A320, 757/767 and A330 captain positions. The latest bid shows that on March 1st 2011 there are 1112 737, A320,757/767 and A330 active captain positions, a drop of about 16.5%. Is that growth? They are offset by 80 EMB captains(sort of, since the EMB190 C/O pay is only slighltly higher than A320 F/O rates and if you are on reserve it would be a pay cut).

I have assumed the west shrinkage was more. Has the west had a greater that 16% decrease in captain positions?

Are you sure that you had 1331 ACTIVE captains at the time? According to the Nicolau award that has not been disputed. Shows 1040 plus WB captains. Unless you 291 captains for the 19 WB’s your numbers are (shock) overstated. Closer to 150 WB captains. Notice the 167 captain for the 757. So in reality you would have had between 1190 and 1200 captains. Compared to the 1192 that you have today.

Looks to me that you have not lost any captains let alone the 16% that you claim. You do know that LTD is not an active pilot right.

The first step in creating the Integrated List is to temporarily extract from the January 1, 2007 lists those non-flying pilots and those on leaves of absence (MGT, LOA and MED). The Integrated List will begin with a top-tier consisting of the first 423 US Airways pilots on the extracted US Airways list. Once the 423 senior active flying pilots are properly placed on the top of the list and Monda and Odell are placed immediately before Colello, the portion of the list between 424 and Monda/Odell is to be integrated as follows, an America West pilot first and ties broken by crediting the older of the two pilots:
A ratio based on 167 and 90 B757 Captains
A ratio based on 873 and 767 A320/B737 Captains
A•ratio based on 176 and 87 B757 First Officers
A ratio based on 840 and 718 A320/B737 First Officers.
Following this, all pilots extracted from the lists are to be reinserted into the Integrated List immediately ahead of the next most junior pilot from the extracted pilot's List of .January 1, 2007. 5

5 Reinserting the pilots extracted from the top of the list brings the total number to 517 rather than 423. However, more than 70% of that difference is made up of pilots on long-term medical leave and of those most have been on such leaves for more than two years.

BTW the west is down about 20% on captains.

 

[crazystnic]

Ok it is not 85% it is 80.4% That is still a staple.

Look at the your own proposal. Colello was furloughed. Monda is the bottom of your list. Everyone else was furloughed and did not bring a job. A DOH list places Colello a furloughed pilot above B. Mitchell he was number 364 out of 1853. I know you guys are a little weak at math. 364/1853=80.4% of the west pilots go below furloughed east pilots.

At the time of the merger we had a little over 1000 captains. So your DOH dream theft would place east furloughed pilot above over 600 west captains. Talk about a windfall. Right there it is. So yes DOH is a staple of 80& of the west pilots.

Explain that to a jury. How a furloughed pilot that without a job and without a merger would be o the street. That after binding arbitration he was placed below a pilot with a job. But in a one sided east decision now wants to place 80% of the west pilots below that same pilot that had no job or even a prospect of returning to a job.

DOH is a staple. No other way to say it. You guys can keep denying it but the rest of the world sees it for what it is.

******************************************
It's not a staple if you can't exercise your number.
Conditions and restrictions.

maybe a better way would of been reaching out to get the CR to work for everyone instead of suing?

 

[crazystnic]

My opinion is, did he put it on usapa letterhead? That reads like..."our primary objective of reneging on binding arbitration".

As to the core issue, the usapa HQ should not be located in a high crime area, (although the fact that usapa is in the neighborhood instantly raises the statistics), particularly an area where violent crimes are taking place. That is why usapa should pick out a nice Tempe location.

However, we all know usapa is not moving into its largest pilot domicile, where it would have easy access to all the corporate officers. That would throw a monkey wrench into usapa's "primary objective".

*********************
I agree with you it should not be in a high crime area and that is what I told my reps.

but I disagree it should be in PHX at this time.

Most of the pilots in the union live on the east coast.

 

[Pi brat]

Are you sure that you had 1331 ACTIVE captains at the time? According to the Nicolau award that has not been disputed. Shows 1040 plus WB captains. Unless you 291 captains for the 19 WB’s your numbers are (shock) overstated. Closer to 150 WB captains. Notice the 167 captain for the 757. So in reality you would have had between 1190 and 1200 captains. Compared to the 1192 that you have today.

Looks to me that you have not lost any captains let alone the 16% that you claim. You do know that LTD is not an active pilot right.




BTW the west is down about 20% on captains.

Is it possible for you not to be and XXX? My numbers come directly from the company's bid announcements that list actual positions by base. Can I attach PDFs? If so I will put them up for you to see. These are the actual butts in seats numbers. As Jim said, the difference in guys on the seniority list vs. guys actually flying is huge and at times confusing. Our list has names of guys that are out for different reasons. Some medical, leave ect(as does yours, but I imagine our numbers of those type guys is higher).

My reason for posting this was to counter pre's claim that the east has GROWN. We have not. We got the majority of new aircraft, but retired a lot of hulls since May 2005. I was not making a case for anything else or using it against/for the Nic.

 

[Pi brat]

Are you sure that you had 1331 ACTIVE captains at the time? According to the Nicolau award that has not been disputed. Shows 1040 plus WB captains. Unless you 291 captains for the 19 WB’s your numbers are (shock) overstated. Closer to 150 WB captains. Notice the 167 captain for the 757. So in reality you would have had between 1190 and 1200 captains. Compared to the 1192 that you have today.

Looks to me that you have not lost any captains let alone the 16% that you claim. You do know that LTD is not an active pilot right.




BTW the west is down about 20% on captains.

1040 plus WB captains? We have never had that many.

Sorry, attached wrong '05 bid at first

 

[Pi brat]

I do not know the total number of Captains,(i.e. how many are on LTD, in management and training etc.), however, in the most recent vacancy/displacement/recall bid, the projected outcome is a grand total of 640 A320 and 757 Captains. The 737 fleet is going away completely.

In 2005, when we had 1884 pilots, we had over 1000 Captains total. If you add a fudge factor of say even as high as 200 Captains in management on LTD etc, the grand total of West Captains would be 840, or 160 less than the 1000, or exactly 16%.

I am still trying to figure out how come we only need 640 Captain positions to operate 122 aircraft. what is the staffing formula around here?

Those numbers don't sound right, unless your seniority list was really inflated. 1000 or so captains out of 1884 comes up to about 55% captains. That sounds about right, but don't you have around 1500 pilots now? With that ratio it would be about 825 captains, or a little less than the 20% less as Clear claims, and closer to what the east lost. Can you find bids from 2005 vs now?

 

[Pi brat]

Jim worked these bids, so I'm sure if I'm wrong, he will let us know.

 

[lynyrdskynyrd]

Well what's your opinion on this......

quote]

My opinion on that is biggie smalls is a Cleary messenger boy with a new handle.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Jim worked these bids, so I'm sure if I'm wrong, he will let us know.

That's the problem with using the numbers from the bid packet - a number of captains aren't on it. In 2005 I think all, or at least most of the check airmen were captains (don't know if that is the case now). Likewise with the equipment managers in the hubs. Also, many of those on medical had the seniority to hold captain if they returned - they were put back just above those immediately whoever was immediately below them on the East land west lists.

I don't know how the West handles the check airmen, those out on medical, etc. Did check airmen fly the line some of the time, etc.

I got a seniority and alphabetical list from each bid through 2007 since I was still getting calls about the bids after I retired. Unfortunately I don't have that for after 2007. Plus there's the question of post-merger equipment changes due to pre-merger announcement agreements. East and West divered there - West had airplanes coming which didn't show up after the merger and IIRC West also had new hire classes scheculed which were cancelled after the merger.

Jim

 

[Pi brat]

That's the problem with using the numbers from the bid packet - a number of captains aren't on it. In 2005 I think all, or at least most of the check airmen were captains (don't know if that is the case now). Likewise with the equipment managers in the hubs. Also, many of those on medical had the seniority to hold captain if they returned - they were put back just above those immediately whoever was immediately below them on the East land west lists.

I don't know how the West handles the check airmen, those out on medical, etc. Did check airmen fly the line some of the time, etc.

I got a seniority and alphabetical list from each bid through 2007 since I was still getting calls about the bids after I retired. Unfortunately I don't have that for after 2007. Plus there's the question of post-merger equipment changes due to pre-merger announcement agreements. East and West divered there - West had airplanes coming which didn't show up after the merger and IIRC West also had new hire classes scheculed which were cancelled after the merger.

Jim

I understand and I agree, but as I said, doesn't the bid announcement kind of distill all those numbers into a number that shows who is flying the airplanes? If you add in the rest it would inflate the numbers on both ends. From your viewing of those two bid announcements, do you not see a smaller east pilot group vs. the growth prechill claimed?

 

[Pi brat]

Just to review, this is what prechil said on page 751:

"Exactly. What USAPA's C & Rs forget about is any growth flying, a benefit the east has been enjoying tremendously since day one of the merger. Look at their seniority list, how much has it grown since May 2005? About 700 numbers!"

I went to the USAPA web page and pulled up the latest east seniority list. The bottom guy listed on there is a little less than 3500(they have Co Sen and Curr Sen, don't know the difference, so I get rounded up to give her the benefit of the doubt). So under pre's theory, we only had 2800 pilots on the east list on May 19, 2005? I don't think so.

 

[Crzipilot]

Can't you take the position numbers listed by Equp/Base and add up all the capt positions in Each bid package?

That would at least give you the "Active" number of capts on the line. Compare that to the bid that just came out, and see what the numbers show.