US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Pi brat]

So I guess what your saying pi brat is that I must sue a union and a group of pilots to treat me FAIRLY in regards to my contract and the TA? Done that and honesty it was quite easy and will be easier the next time. Under alpa I had my own rights along with you. Under usapa, they must do this for all us airways pilots.

The NIC is WRITTEN in STONE because of you and your east pilots that elected usapa.

How you choose to delay is up to you and it will get expensive on usapa's part.

BTW, please take a look at the companies DJ filing in Federal Court. Count for me how many times they state the Addington case that the usapa brain trust states never happened is actually listed in their filing?

Otter

I didn't elect USAPA, I voted for ALPA, but I think I made a mistake.I guess we will see when it is all over, but I won't tell you that I have it all figure out like you do us.

You shouldn't have to sue your union to be treated fairly, but if you disagree with what fairly is, that is what you have to do, just like the MDA guys did.

 

[aquagreen73s]

I am going to make it really easy. It is the RED. Could it be any clearer? And these are DIRECT QUOTES!!!

Correct. But what you fail to understand is that it's not the will of the majority that determines what is fair - it's a judge or a jury.

How'd it work out for you in Addington? Two hours was it before they returned a verdict against USAPA and their DOH scheme?

 

[Pi brat]

This is fun and all, but I'm waiting for some replies to my numbers. Prechillerisk?

 

[Pi brat]

Hey Jim! Been lookin for ya!

 

[Reed Richards]

The T/A says we will use the ALPA method of seniority integration. It has not be changed by the parties. You say it can be, make a move. so far usapa had not be able to negotiate much of anything. Let alone a huge deal like screwing the west.

You seem to be catching on, but you just are getting the little parts wrong. As per the NMB in April of 2008, the language you reference was officially changed to, to paraphrase... we will use the "insert new union here" method of seniority integration. Insert USAPA, delete ALPA. It is that simple, and the same logic applies to all sections of your current agreement on the West, like it or not. Had the seniority list been immortalized in a ratified contract, it would be near impossible to change, unless we were sliding scabs lower (ala Rakestraw) for the good of the union. But it was not. Simple fact, never ratified.

To back up other posters here, the T/A used to have 3 parties, it now only has 2..USAPA and the Company. Don't confuse the fact we have two separate contracts being administered with anything to do with the T/A. There are items in the T/A that supersede the individual contracts of both East and West, but all the enforcement of each contract and the T/A is now handled by USAPA. No USAPA east or west. Just USAPA.

And there is nothing that say the T/A cannot be changed if both (not three) parties agree. That is true of any agreement. However, under the USAPA CBA we would all get to vote on such changes. And yes, if the pilots in the PHX crew base (or any other) felt they were treated badly, they could at some point file a DFR against the union. But good luck, unless it was blatant favoritism. If you get to vote on it, and it benefits the interests of the union as a whole……

And don’t take any solace that our mediation is NMB governed. The Mediator can make decisions going forward on what she will do (park, release, continue, etc.) but she cannot impose contract sections of any kind on either union. That would only occur in binding Federal Arbitration. We have not had that. We could get to the point of the Atlas/Polar guys, and agree to such an arbitration..but I don’t see that happening in my career.

I have been beating my drum here for over a year, pay attention to Scope. If you are a pilot under the West contract, call you reps and get a briefing on the third party report as to just what scope we each have. You would be surprised at just how strong the East language is..so strong that Parker has spoken of it with distain…he claims he will circumvent it. Your scope sucks big time, but make the call, maybe there are a few Easter eggs in there we all have missed. I doubt it.

So keep screaming all you want. Nic is not required in any contract, and you cannot file a DFR as to seniority until we have a ratified contract. When you do sue, you can only sue as to the contents of that contract, and not the reasons you think brought about USAPA, or any other misconceptions on your part.

A ratified contract with DOH and fences and restrictions. If that ever occurs..good luck on your DFR.

RR

 

[Pi brat]

Tomorrow is a big day for team Tempe. Will they listen, or write it off?

 

[OTTER574]

Perhaps we can all accept the maxim that a Federal Court knows Federal Arbitration when it sees it...

I think the 9th is a Federal Court.. I mean maybe it is. Nic4Us might know better than I do.

The 9th called it an Internal Union Process and forgot to mention "Federally Arbitrated." Surely they would be willing to correct their oversight if it was politely pointed out to them.

Maybe send them a box of chocolates along with your letter of correction.

phoenix....i guess most airline pilot groups of late got it wrong according to you and your uspsa brain trust? Internal Union Process at DAL and NWA.....UAL and CAL (soon).....and AAA and AWA all got it wrong according to you and your usapa brain trust. Just because you make statements, does not make it so.

Please tell all here what US FEDERAL COURTS OF LAW will honor your/usapa views?

Otter

 

[aquagreen73s]

So keep screaming all you want. Nic is not required in any contract, and you cannot file a DFR as to seniority until we have a ratified contract. When you do sue, you can only sue as to the contents of that contract, and not the reasons you think brought about USAPA, or any other misconceptions on your part.

A ratified contract with DOH and fences and restrictions. If that ever occurs..good luck on your DFR.

RR

The Duty of Fair Representation is breached when the union's conduct towards a bargaining unit member is arbitrary, discriminatory, or in bad faith. The claim will be the same in Addington II as it was in Addington I: the bad faith is evidenced by the acts to avoid the arbitration and negotiate a DOH list that advantages the majority over the minority. The evidence trail of bad faith starts before USAPA and goes all the way through negotiations. I know you'd like to believe otherwise, but trying to talk sense into USAPA chuckleheads is pointless. You all said you'd have a contract in no time, yet here you are three years later and you haven't even closed a third of the sections. Obviously you had no idea what you were talking about. You said it would take years for the West to even get to trial, yet we had a jury verdict less than 13 months after the formation of USAPA. You said after the 9th Circuit that you had no obstacles to getting a contract with DOH, yet a month later the company files their declaratory action.

A lot isn't working out like you say, and the reason is because of your refusal to grasp fundamental constraints on how a union represents its members. You will be on LOA 93 for as long as you refuse to accept the Nic. Enjoy LOA 93!

Edit: And by the way- Bradford won't get away for Addington II.

 

[Phoenix]

phoenix....i guess most airline pilot groups of late got it wrong according to you and your uspsa brain trust? Internal Union Process at DAL and NWA.....UAL and CAL (soon).....and AAA and AWA all got it wrong according to you and your usapa brain trust. Just because you make statements, does not make it so.

Please tell all here what US FEDERAL COURTS OF LAW will honor your/usapa views?

Otter

Can you please cite were DAL, NWA, UAL, or CAL said they went to Federal Arbitration? If they did so, they were evidently unfamiliar with the words of the 9th that classify mandated ALAP arbitration as an internal union process (as distinct from Federal Arbitration).

As to your question, Federal Courts tend to cite other Federal Courts published opinions (and that would not be the dissent's opinion).

 

[OTTER574]

Hey! I'm and eastie and I'm old! Give me the respect I deserve, whippersnapper.

Okay, westies avoid this, let's try you. The TA says ANY combined seniority list will not be used until we have a joint contract. I will give you that we reached a joint seniority list called the Nic, you tell me when the last piece of the puzzle that would establish you damages, a joint contract, would have occurred absent USAPA.

Counting? Tell me your total due.

See what I mean guys?

Now I'm a "westies, whippersnapper?" And....I guess you and I have different meanings of a "UNION PILOT?"

But you just admitted the NIC is it in a joint contract as per the TA.

As far as damages are concerned..pretty easy to prove when usapa breaks it DFR along with the company if it so chooses to go along with usapa's illegal acts.

DFR HAMMER meets east pilots/usapa's thick skull HEAD

Otter

 

[Pi brat]

Now I'm a "westies, whippersnapper?" And....I guess you and I have different meanings of a "UNION PILOT?"

But you just admitted the NIC is it in a joint contract as per the TA.

As far as damages are concerned..pretty easy to prove when usapa breaks it DFR along with the company if it so chooses to go along with usapa's illegal acts.

DFR HAMMER meets east pilots/usapa's thick skull HEAD

Otter

Otter, Otter Otter.....I'm messing with you. You called me young man, I countered, again just messing.

Absolutely, if we get a joint contract with the Nic, I see it as the seniority list of the US Airways pilots. What I don't know is if it is okay for USAPA to negotiate away from it. When I read the TA letter for letter, it seems that all parties have lived up to their obligations-we followed the process and ended up with the Nic. But.........the TA does not say it will be implemented or can never be changed, does it? Is it implied? I really don't know and won't tell anyone I have the answers. I also feel that the provision of the TA that calls for a joint contract to be in place trumps all, and there is no way anyone can predict when, or if, we will ever get that.

 

[Pi brat]

Prechilllage..........please refer to page 773 and reply, lot's of b.s. has taken place in between and don't want you to miss it. Tick tock...........

 

[OTTER574]

Can you please cite were DAL, NWA, UAL, or CAL said they went to Federal Arbitration? If they did so, they were evidently unfamiliar with the words of the 9th that classify mandated ALAP arbitration as an internal union process (as distinct from Federal Arbitration).

As to your question, Federal Courts tend to cite other Federal Courts published opinions (and that would not be the dissent's opinion).

So now if I'm reading you right...I guess you're trying to make an argument/statement that the 9th made case law in regards to a private arbitration and all others including federal? (btw, it doesn't matter) Which according to you, will make all arbitration awards null and void?

You really think usapa and lee seham are that good??.........


Otter

 

[Reed Richards]

You all said you'd have a contract in no time, yet here you are three years later and you haven't even closed a third of the sections. Obviously you had no idea what you were talking about. You said it would take years for the West to even get to trial, yet we had a jury verdict less than 13 months after the formation of USAPA. You said after the 9th Circuit that you had no obstacles to getting a contract with DOH, yet a month later the company files their declaratory action.

Edit: And by the way- Bradford won't get away for Addington II.

I said what? I just came on this board in Sep09, should be interesting to see you pull some my posts prior to that date.

Nobody at USAPA promised a contract in any timeframe, pre election or otherwise. Don't even start with that cost neutral BS.

I had no comments on how long it would take the West to get to trial..see above...Sep09. But I was surprised just how quick the Addingtion boys did in the pooch..the filing was DOA, but is has cost us all over two years of no contract because of an unripe lawsuit.

No obstacles to a DOH contract..none legal, eventually, but none after that. But I have the same dilemma Boeing Boy has.. I cannot prove a negative.

Any party at any time can file a lawsuit, I did not see the one from Management coming..but I thought they were telling the truth when they said they would not get involved.

RR

 

[Reed Richards]

Edit: And by the way- Bradford won't get away for Addington II.

He did not "get away." The incompetent lawyers at Marty and Company screwed up the summons. Seems they did not even know who the current President USAPA was. You have to be kidding me. I guess that is the kind of service you get when your lawyers are not paid.

And no, he will never be called for DFR II. He would be at least two Presidents removed and probably retired by then. What role would he have in a contract so far removed from his service?

Steve Bradford did a bang up job on Nic and ALPA. He is one of the few true superheroes that could kick my butt.

RR