US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Zone5]

I am never in favor of more litigation. I'm in favor of the most expeditious route to justice, aka, the arbitrated seniority list.

I agree, unfortunately the way our system works is through litigation. The only way to get the NIC is through a West sponsored DFR-II. The only way to get there is through a ratified contract. Justice?, fairness?, like beauty it's in the eye of the beholder. My ex-wife's lawyer had a whole different take on those concepts than I did for instance. At the end of the day the only "winners" tend to be the lawyers, on both side of any question.

It be what it be.

seajay

 

[Phoenix]

Don't confuse them with the law. After all BB or one of his imitators
said the 9th opinion is....well.....
just an opinion.......well ....yea it is!!!!!!!!!!

NICDOA
NPJB

Its only a majority opinion, at that.

 

[Phoenix]

Why would that bother anybody? It's not about them. It's about LCC, no one else. Anybody want to work somewhere else? Go for it.

Its really ironic how many folks are so obsessive about discovering what must surely make USAPA pilots miserable. Eh, everyone's entitled to search for companions wherever that want, I suppose.

 

[767jetz]

I know I'm right about at least one thing. IT SUCKS TO LOSE, doesn't it? Go ahead, cry. You'll feel better tomorrow!

Feel better about what? Did I EVER claim that the SCOTUS was going to resolve this issue? In fact I don't remember anyone saying there was more than even a slim chance of SCOTUS taking up the case. And that certainly wasn't me. The west's best chance to a quick resolution is the DJ, although I personally have small hope that will go anyone's way. I'd say about 50/50, no more. It probably puts you all back at square one. It's DFR II where I predict you easties will have your biggest fall. Until you have your DOH contract and no more LOA 93 poverty pay rates, you have won nothing. I'd say the west has done a pretty good job of fending that tactic off so far. Wouldn't you, butterhead?

 

[Glucose Intolerant]

I agree, unfortunately the way our system works is through litigation. The only way to get the NIC is through a West sponsored DFR-II. The only way to get there is through a ratified contract. Justice?, fairness?, like beauty it's in the eye of the beholder. My ex-wife's lawyer had a whole different take on those concepts than I did for instance. At the end of the day the only "winners" tend to be the lawyers, on both side of any question.

It be what it .

seajay

Good luck with that..... More waste of time and money with the same result.

 

[nevergiveup]

Feel better about what? Did I EVER claim that the SCOTUS was going to resolve this issue? In fact I don't remember anyone saying there was more than even a slim chance of SCOTUS taking up the case. And that certainly wasn't me. The west's best chance to a quick resolution is the DJ, although I personally have small hope that will go anyone's way. I'd say about 50/50, no more. It probably puts you all back at square one. It's DFR II where I predict you easties will have your biggest fall. Until you have your DOH contract and no more LOA 93 poverty pay rates, you have won nothing. I'd say the west has done a pretty good job of fending that tactic off so far. Wouldn't you, butterhead?

You don't get something for nothing. Pay your dues and you will rise in seniority like everyone else.

 

[AWA320]

So far all the Courts have done is kill DFR-I over ripeness. The merits of a DFR-II can only be heard and adjudicated at the conclusion of a new JCBA, period. I'm not making this stuff up here, below is the verbatim pertinent language from the 9th Court of Appeals ruling affirmed by the SCOUS.

"[5] We conclude that this case presents contingencies that
could prevent effectuation of USAPA’s proposal and the
accompanying injury. At this point, neither the West Pilots
nor USAPA can be certain what seniority proposal ultimately
will be acceptable to both USAPA and the airline as part of
a final CBA. Likewise, it is not certain whether that proposal
will be ratified by the USAPA membership as part of a new,
single CBA. Not until the airline responds to the proposal, the
parties complete negotiations, and the membership ratifies the
CBA will the West Pilots actually be affected by USAPA’s
seniority proposal — whatever USAPA’s final proposal ultimately
is. Because these contingencies make the claim speculative,
the issues are not yet fit for judicial decision.

[9] Our conclusion that Plaintiffs’ claim is not ripe is consistent
with our DFR decisions, which have found DFR violations
based on contract negotiation only after a contract has
been agreed upon.

[10] For the foregoing reasons, we hold that Plaintiffs’
DFR claim is not ripe; therefore, the case is REMANDED to
the district court with directions that the action be DISMISSED."

The DFR-I party is over, turn out the lights. You can start planning the festivities for DFR-II but I wouldn't have the invitations printed up just yet. Better to decide who the "DJ" is going to be first.

seajay

Great point now take off the pilot hat and put on a management hat and ask the question, do we want to be enjoined in a lawsuit brought on by the west? How much would this cost LCC should we lose? How much is that cost should we win? Whats the difference between the two??

This only really hurts the employees because if and when this company goes belly up the senior management have golden chutes.

AWA320

 

[AWA320]

You may be finally getting it - it's about LCC, not how long someone waited at US or how quickly someone upgraded at HP. It's not "adding" the West pilots to the East list. That all disappeared when the separate airlines ceased to exist and what each pilot could hold when the two companies joined to form a new company.

Jim

Not a chance in the world he gets it. The lesson will come hard and fast and like many of his kind he will blame everyone but himself for the outcome.

AWA320

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Great point now take off the pilot hat and put on a management hat and ask the question, do we want to be enjoined in a lawsuit brought on by the west? How much would this cost LCC should we lose? How much is that cost should we win? Whats the difference between the two??

This only really hurts the employees because if and when this company goes belly up the senior management have golden chutes.

AWA320

You're STILL as clueless as ever. They get sued by the west AFTER a ratified contract, or they get sued by USAPA for failing to follow the law, and also face a potential "self help" action. Which do you think the company fears most? If you're not sure, go back and watch the December Crew News video.

And, by the way, I get it. Apparently you don't. Or, you're just in denial.

And as far as BB is concerned, it appears that the U/PI DOH combination is getting revalidated all the time. PI wasn't allowed to steal the U seniority like they wanted, either. It's just too bad they were able to pull it off with Empire.

 

[AWA320]

You're STILL an idiot. They get sued by the west AFTER a ratified contract, or they get sued by USAPA for failing to follow the law, and also face a potential "self help" action. Which do you think the comapny fears most? If you're not sure, go back and watch the December Crew News video.

And, by the way, I get it. Apparently you don't. Or, you're just in denial.

And as far as BB is concerned, it appears that the U/PI DOH combination is getting revalidated all the time. PI wasn't allowed to steal the U seniority like they wanted, either. It's just too bad they were able to pull it off with Empire.

Is that all you can do is call names and cry to the CP that you can get in the jumpseat? Like I said before if its as easy as you've brainwashed to believe then you would already have DOH now would you?

Not in denial just know the law and how it works my friend.

AWA320

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Is that all you can do is call names and cry to the CP that you can get in the jumpseat? Like I said before if its as easy as you've brainwashed to believe then you would already have DOH now would you?

I do have my DOH. Pretty easy, huh. Haven't used a JS in a while. But I would talk to the CP if I was denied one just because I work in the East. Then, you might even get to move up a number.

Not in denial just know the law and how it works my friend.

AWA320

Then you're STILL delusional. I can tell because you called me "friend". No thanks. I'll pass on that.

Yea, you're a REAL legal expert. I hear that Polsinelli Shugart needs a few MORE like you.

 

[exB717Flyer]

Good luck with that..... More waste of time and money with the same result.

Same result? The DFR loss I agree with but since ripeness won't be an issue exactly on what grounds do you figure you'd win on appeal?

 

[AWA320]

I do have my DOH. Pretty easy, huh. Haven't used a JS in a while. But I would talk to the CP if I was denied one just because I work in the East. Then, you might even get to move up a number.


Then you're STILL delusional. I can tell because you called me "friend". No thanks. I'll pass on that.

Yea, you're a REAL legal expert. I hear that Polsinelli Shugart needs a few MORE like you.

Of course you would run to the CP thats how you all do. I said friend not to be friendly but as rather a slight. You have problems and you can not figure out a way to get out of them and save face.

There is not a chance in the world that you get a do over nor do you get to get out of the obligations of this arbitration. Now you whine, cry, moan and groan and it still ends the same way. If you could just run over us and get your dream DOH then you would have it but you cant and you know it. It should have sunk in by now but some heads are thicker than others.

In any even good luck with your attempt at screwing over us in the west and enjoy those Colgan wages because they will last as long as you continue to be dishonorable.

AWA320

 

[AWA320]

Well at least we agree on the DJ thing... The NIC arbitration was, for the one millionth time... AN INTERNAL UNION ARBITRATION TO ACHIEVE A SENIORITY INTEGRATION PROPOSAL TO SUBMIT TO THE COMPANY... Your little side show in Arizona with Judge Wake wherein you claim that USAPA was found "guilty by a jury" is irrelevant because not only was Judge Wake wrong on more than determining whether the case was ripe, but because how he oversaw the case, the evidence that he permitted to be heard and the instructions to the jury were all flawed from the get-go. The Ninth threw out the determination, and with it any finding of "guilt" (your word not mine) as well.

And the grievance isn't over a "snap back" as so many erroneously call it. It is the expiration of a "temporary" reduction in pay, upon a certain date, after which the pay would be restored to the previous level. I wouldn't give odds on whether or not that grievance will be won, but whether or not it goes the pilot's way... will not change one single thing in the East about the NIC. For us... it is an abomination and windfall for the west (thus their efforts to pay a law firm over $2m, and fight tooth and nail to have it implemented!)

Tell me something, had Nic said DOH would you still be claiming the horsesht that the arbitration process was just a proposal???

You are so brain washed that you really believe that you will get DOH a snapback and a new contract. Who can mess with that logic? Go get it man!!


AWA320

 

[oldiebutgoody]

Of course you would run to the CP thats how you all do. I said friend not to be friendly but as rather a slight. You have problems and you can not figure out a way to get out of them and save face.

There is not a chance in the world that you get a do over nor do you get to get out of the obligations of this arbitration. Now you whine, cry, moan and groan and it still ends the same way. If you could just run over us and get your dream DOH then you would have it but you cant and you know it. It should have sunk in by now but some heads are thicker than others.

In any even good luck with your attempt at screwing over us in the west and enjoy those Colgan wages because they will last as long as you continue to be dishonorable.

AWA320

If you're the guy that rumors say you are, then you're one of the guys that refused to negotiate at Wye River and fired Jeffrey Freund as your lawyer. More evidence of your brilliant legal knowledge.

DOH is a done deal. Better get used to the idea.

Yea, sure. Dishonorable. Like trying to steal someone else's seniority, I guess? Well then, I don't have to worry about that.