US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Reed Richards]

I do not see any language in the TA that allows the method to be unilaterally determined by usapa at all.

The language involved talks in the future tense and says that the method of distribution was to be determend by the MECs. That was done, the method was used, not once but twice without being modified. Same issues as the Nic, done deal, there is no contractual method for usapa to revisit the issue without a seperate West MEC to approve the changes.

If after almost 3 years you cannot accept the fact that no "MECs" exist now, only a BPR , than why bother. Like I said, there is no language requiring that the same methodology be used year on year.

But what is interesting is, so far, nothing like that is being proposed..again accepting the fact the BPR is in session and all bets are off. Maybe just a little spreading of the wealth, but no big changes.

Seems the greatest outrage on this particular board occurred when nothing changed. “How dare they not give us something to complain about!?”

RR

 

[Zone5]

Seems that all the USAPAians have is attack. Do you have the same hatred for USAPA since they didn't give the Empire guys their DOH either? USAPA, founded on the "DOH is the only fair way (except for you Empire and Trump pilots)" platform. Oh, that's right - you crawled up the backs of the Empire and Trump pilots too....

Jim

Piedmont (ALPA) did what they did to the Empire pilots before USAir even merged with them. The Trump pilots resigned their Eastern seniority numbers as a condition of going to work for "The Donald". The Shuttle pilots got a deal that I haven't heard any of them claim was bad.

seajay

 

[BoeingBoy]

Like I said, there is no language requiring that the same methodology be used year on year.

Nor is there language allowing different methodologies from year to year. The TA does say "a distribution method..." (singular, not plural).

Jim

 

[Reed Richards]

Seems that all the USAPAians have is attack. Do you have the same hatred for USAPA since they didn't give the Empire guys their DOH either? USAPA, founded on the "DOH is the only fair way (except for you Empire and Trump pilots)" platform. Oh, that's right - you crawled up the backs of the Empire and Trump pilots too....

Jim

Knew this was coming from you Jim, just wondered how soon.

USAPA is supposed to reorder a list created almost a quarter century ago at another airline even before "the van ride back from Herndon" and succeed? No Sir. It took us less than one year after NIC to dump our union. You did nothing for over two decades, not even a peep, to fix the EMPIRE injustice. Fixing the NIC..a work in progress. Fixing Empire...well, after half of lifetime of inaction by the likes of you, and a full career...shame on you.

RR

 

[BoeingBoy]

USAPA is supposed to reorder a list created almost a quarter century ago at another airline even before "the van ride back from Herndon" and succeed?

Well Rodger Rabbit, what is the statute of limitations on changing a seniority list? As you climbed up the list on the backs of the Empire and Trump pilots, how much of a peep did you make? I certainly didn't hear you complaining then.

Jim

 

[BoeingBoy]

Piedmont (ALPA) did what they did to the Empire pilots before USAir even merged with them.

Correct, but I never heard a "original us" pilot complaining about it at the time.

The Trump pilots resigned their Eastern seniority numbers as a condition of going to work for "The Donald".

As is customary in a fragmentation. You know, what some East posters say is going to happen here. So if East goes to AA, as some East posters fantasize, you'll be ok with being treated as a new hire at AA?

The Shuttle pilots got a deal that I haven't heard any of them claim was bad.

You need to pay attention - a group of former Trump pilots filed suit over their treatment.

Jim

 

[Zone5]

Correct, but I never heard a "original us" pilot complaining about it at the time.



As is customary in a fragmentation. You know, what some East posters say is going to happen here. So if East goes to AA, as some East posters fantasize, you'll be ok with being treated as a new hire at AA?



You need to pay attention - a group of former Trump pilots filed suit over their treatment.

Jim

Thanks for the insight. I am not aware of any law suit filed by former "The Donald" pilots. What was the outcome or current status of that suit? The real winners in that whole "New York Shuttle" conversion changeover thing would seem to be the former PanAm pilots who are now, what 10 year Delta pilots? Good for them, they are much better off the the Eastern guys the ended up with a job with "UslessAir"!

seajay

 

[BoeingBoy]

What was the outcome or current status of that suit?

I want to say dismissed but I didn't follow it that much so don't take that to the bank.

Jim

 

[Zone5]

Correct, but I never heard a "original us" pilot complaining about it at the time.



As is customary in a fragmentation. You know, what some East posters say is going to happen here. So if East goes to AA, as some East posters fantasize, you'll be ok with being treated as a new hire at AA?



You need to pay attention - a group of former Trump pilots filed suit over their treatment.

Jim

Jim,

How could any "original us" have complained about it at the time? They did not have a dog in that fight. It was the Piedmont (ALPA) guys who presided over that issue.

Furthermore, I'm don't think it was a fragmentation. If so, where did the "fragmented" Empire pilots who did not end up on the Piedmont list end up?

You are correct though about a spin-off of the East to AA, those guys take no prisoners, the East should be careful what they wish for, just look what AA did to the TWA guys!

seajay

 

[Reed Richards]

Well Rodger Rabbit, what is the statute of limitations on changing a seniority list? .
Jim

Unless you are a Scab (as in Rakestraw vs. ALPA/ UAL mid to late 80's) I would say at the point of "membership ratification" of a contract containing the list in question. At great peril to my income and career, I have not yet ratified a joint contract with the West pilots out of conflict over the NIC.

I don't seem to get any Google results (you know "Google"..aww, never mind) showing a similar show of solidarity among your fellow pilots in the mid eighties.."take on me, like a virgin, safety dance, we built this city on rock and roll”..oh never mind again.

RR

 

[aquagreen73s]

Well Rodger Rabbit, what is the statute of limitations on changing a seniority list? As you climbed up the list on the backs of the Empire and Trump pilots, how much of a peep did you make? I certainly didn't hear you complaining then.

Jim

Six months for an arbitration under the Federal Arbitration Act but like the Nic, we're waaaay past that. What's more, Empire-Piedmont didn't have an arbitration to begin with which is too bad because it would be a totally different story if the same result had been arrived at through a third party neutral. Then there wouldn't be the taint of the larger group forcing their subjective opinion of what's fair onto the minority.

Gotta love how the USAPA acolytes condemn the Empire integration but turn right around and maniacally support a cram down on the West primarily because their subjective clashes with the objective. Crazy, but that's the way it is.

 

[Zone5]

Six months for an arbitration under the Federal Arbitration Act but like the Nic, we're waaaay past that. What's more, Empire-Piedmont didn't have an arbitration to begin with which is too bad because it would be a totally different story if the same result had been arrived at through a third party neutral. Then there wouldn't be the taint of the larger group forcing their subjective opinion of what's fair onto the minority.

Gotta love how the USAPA acolytes condemn the Empire integration but turn right around and maniacally support a cram down on the West primarily because their subjective clashes with the objective. Crazy, but that's the way it is.

Relying on a "third party neutral" to decide something as important as a seniority integration when merging two airlines together is a giant "cop-out". ALPA constantly sought to "cover their ass" legally, with their ever changing "merger policies". That's why they are gone. Screw them, West and East should have been locked in a room and thrown red meat until a contact emerged, a vote taken on the results and the inevitable law suits filed. The then "ripe" DFR claims could have been decided by the courts who, as it turns out, we all agree will ultimately make the decision anyway. By now we would all be pulling this wagon in the same direction and both sides would be (hopefully) equally pissed off (as in any "fair" seniority merger), instead of this protracted exercise in self destruction, while the "Dudes" who run this company and pay themselves industry leading wages, while doing so, laugh at us all the way to the bank! We are PILOTS, they are pencil necked bean counters, we should have slugged this out by now and gotten on with the business of moving the metal! Which by the way, is all we have ever been hired to do.

seajay

 

[BoeingBoy]

Relying on a "third party neutral" to decide something as important as a seniority integration when merging two airlines together is a giant "cop-out".

So the Congress "copped out" when they passed the federal law covering mergers? Merged seniority lists before deregulation were decided by the CAB - was that a "cop out"? The Allegheny-Mohawk LPP's are used by both ALPA and USAPA - check USAPA's Constitution - so is it still a "cop out".

Look at the legal bills USAPA has run up - is it any surprise that in the post-deregulation environment that ALPA looks after it's own self-interest and takes a hands off position when 2 ALPA carriers merge. The alternative is that ALPA gets sued by one side or the other in every merger of ALPA carriers because no matter what the policy one side or the other thinks ALPA stuck them with the short end of the stick.

Jim

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

So the Congress "copped out" when they passed the federal law covering mergers? Merged seniority lists before deregulation were decided by the CAB - was that a "cop out"? The Allegheny-Mohawk LPP's are used by both ALPA and USAPA - check USAPA's Constitution - so is it still a "cop out".

Look at the legal bills USAPA has run up - is it any surprise that in the post-deregulation environment that ALPA looks after it's own self-interest and takes a hands off position when 2 ALPA carriers merge. The alternative is that ALPA gets sued by one side or the other in every merger of ALPA carriers because no matter what the policy one side or the other thinks ALPA stuck them with the short end of the stick.

Jim

There's that USAPA bashing again, JIM have you been up late watching "thrillbilly's" again! JAMIE, JJ, JG, MM!

 

[BoeingBoy]

There's that USAPA bashing again

Since when are facts "bashing"? Maybe you, Nos, and Roger Rabbit can take you comedy show on the road. Nos makes up the fecal matter and you and Roger Rabbit throw it at the cage wall seeing if it will stick.

Jim