US Pilots Labor Discussion

[767one]

In my humble opinion both Pilot and F/a groups will be operating under one airline name and one contract whether some like that or not.... It will be interesting how long it will take Usairways pilots to come together and fight as one group when they are out numbered by the AA group! Hey just saying!

I'm thinking it would be better if the labor groups from AA and LCC get together and come up with joint solutions. I also think that even the smaller of the two groups can have an effect on the outcome of this possible merger. If the creditors see another seven years of misery with dysfunctional employee groups they might forget about a merger and go it alone. It will be much better for all if both sides have a hand in crafting new agreements in order not to give away the good items in the contracts on both sides.

 

[767one]

All the pilot euphoria (and not just the APA) surrounding Doug is a testament to his salesmanship.

There appears to be an enthusiasm and urgency building that has little room for reflection on such cumbersome council as "Buyer beware,lest buyer remorse." He really has been altruistic at heart, and as long as we have faith it will bare out to be a boon for even the most junior employee.

Cake for everyone to eat! Bring your fork (it has various uses).

Sort of has the flavor of a good old fashioned revival. It could be a good deal but unless we see ALL the details what we have now is the sizzle and aroma of the steak but who knows exactly what they are cooking? Could be the steak is for someone else and they are putting together a ####sandwich for us.

 

[767one]

No doubt "Dougie" can put together one hell of a good power point presentation! He can blow smoke with the best of them, almost as well as Obama! But, as with all accomplished "speech-a-fiers", it's never about what they say, it's about what they do.

Essentially all, of the major operating benefits of "combining" these three pilot groups can be achieved WITHOUT actually reaching a JCBA. "Dougie" knows this because he has already done it once and in doing so has achieved operating results he would not have even come close to, had he not.

It really is amazing how gullible pilots can be and how much people underestimate "Team Tempe" to this day, even after all we've seen so far. I don't think he really cares whether or not the pilots are on board, if anything, I think he would prefer to see a bigger "food fight" than he has going now, it would be more........cost effective. He already has both the East and the West tied up with an injunction and if memory serves me right, American has one on their pilots also! In Parker's world, it just don't get much better than that.

Like I said before, he will tell labor at American what they want to hear, give give them just enough to get their support, throw in a little "eye wash" for the rest of us and "get-er done". He just doesn't really need or necessarily even want our "cooperation" to do so! Why do you think we didn't even find out about this deal until after it was already hammered out? I say it's because he knows he can do it without us.


seajay

While I agree with most of your post I would disagree about not needing our cooperation. If the money folks were to see the possibility of another seven years of misery they might just think that going it alone would be best.

 

[BoeingBoy]

You really don't get the big picture here. <snip> As many West pilots have pointed out, the minority can drag out reaching a JCBA for a looooooong time, DFR actions cut both ways. Just ask ALPA about TWA.

Only if the majority intentionally uses it's control of the union to commit a DFR...APA probably isn't as dumb as the east/USAPA is...

You potentially stand two rulings away from not having a say as the majority controlling the union - Judge Silver and the NMB STS rulings. If Judge Silver rules the way most believe she will there's no way APA will touch anything but the Nic. You can attempt to get enough money together to file a DFR suit if you want to throw your money away, but it will have no chance of success. I believe that east/USAPA has enough experience with summary judgement against you to know what it's like so there's no need for me to explain it. Remember that elation after USAPA won the representational election - "the majority can do what it wants" and all that. You felt that you had the tiger by the tail them, but now you're stuck with "OMG, I can't let go of this tiger or keep up with how fast it's running!!!"

Having said all that, I think Parker's "completed by the end of the year" doesn't have a chance barring some event unforeseen at this point and his attempt to acquire AA has less than a 50-50 chance of success.

Jim

 

[algflyr]

The West is going to join up with the APA at the first opportunity. That will be the one group to overwhelm the East by a vast majority. Whatever kills USAPA the fastest is the path the West will take.

You are assuming the East pilots will fight for USAPA to be the surviving Union. I believe that's not true. My bet is that the majority of East pilots would also support the APA being the surviving Union on the property if we merge. The current USAPA representatives will still be representing the pilots of their respective domiciles under the APA.

 

[nic4us]

In my humble opinion both Pilot and F/a groups will be operating under one airline name and one contract whether some like that or not.... It will be interesting how long it will take Usairways pilots to come together and fight as one group when they are out numbered by the AA group! Hey just saying!

So far, all indications are we will not come together.

usapa is still clinging to the DOH..Nic do-over mantra. Which BTW, just ain't going to happen.

I heard Ken Stravers was asked to join the merger committe but declined due to ...what is a polite way of saying this??..."artistic differences".

 

[Freighterguynow]

Wrong.

Loser

 

[Phoenix]

Loser

Wrong.X.2 up soon.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Only if the majority intentionally uses it's control of the union to commit a DFR...APA probably isn't as dumb as the east/USAPA is...

You potentially stand two rulings away from not having a say as the majority controlling the union - Judge Silver and the NMB STS rulings. If Judge Silver rules the way most believe she will there's no way APA will touch anything but the Nic. You can attempt to get enough money together to file a DFR suit if you want to throw your money away, but it will have no chance of success. I believe that east/USAPA has enough experience with summary judgement against you to know what it's like so there's no need for me to explain it. Remember that elation after USAPA won the representational election - "the majority can do what it wants" and all that. You felt that you had the tiger by the tail them, but now you're stuck with "OMG, I can't let go of this tiger or keep up with how fast it's running!!!"

Having said all that, I think Parker's "completed by the end of the year" doesn't have a chance barring some event unforeseen at this point and his attempt to acquire AA has less than a 50-50 chance of success.

Jim

Only 2 REALLY?, APA won't touch anything till the 9th rules(in any direction) they(APA) want a 7year fence remember, besides gives DUI long enough time to sell the WEST avoiding all litigation or dragging this out another 7years, To the "OUTSIDE" we give the ILLUSION as "ONE" USAIRWAYS! SEAJAY is correct about that besides JIM, We could care less what goes on at the old folks home or what they think!

 

[high*flyer]

"You potentially stand two rulings away from not having a say as the majority controlling the union - Judge Silver and the NMB STS rulings. If Judge Silver rules the way most believe she will there's no way APA will touch anything but the Nic."
Jim

Regardless of her ruling , I don't expect either side to throw in the towel.

 

[Zone5]

While I agree with most of your post I would disagree about not needing our cooperation. If the money folks were to see the possibility of another seven years of misery they might just think that going it alone would be best.

I don't know Bob. This thing is on a pretty fast track and by the time the curtain gets pulled back on the "Wizard" it will be a done deal. If he really needed the East and West to do this deal, he wouldn't have given us the "mushroom" treatment like he has so far.

Furthermore, I don't think the money folks give a rats ass about pilots in misery, as long as they have an injunction, the metal gets moved and lots of labor cost gets saved. Not much to hate, if you are a money man on Wall Street!

We shall see.


seajay

 

[BoeingBoy]

Only 2 REALLY?

Yes, really...you won't be saved by the bell, otherwise called the 9th, with a "not ripe" ruling this tiime. While you're waiting for the "spin the west off" fairy to show up, the only spinning will be your head as the world moves on with or without you.

Jim

 

[Zone5]

Only if the majority intentionally uses it's control of the union to commit a DFR...APA probably isn't as dumb as the east/USAPA is...

You potentially stand two rulings away from not having a say as the majority controlling the union - Judge Silver and the NMB STS rulings. If Judge Silver rules the way most believe she will there's no way APA will touch anything but the Nic. You can attempt to get enough money together to file a DFR suit if you want to throw your money away, but it will have no chance of success. I believe that east/USAPA has enough experience with summary judgement against you to know what it's like so there's no need for me to explain it. Remember that elation after USAPA won the representational election - "the majority can do what it wants" and all that. You felt that you had the tiger by the tail them, but now you're stuck with "OMG, I can't let go of this tiger or keep up with how fast it's running!!!"

Having said all that, I think Parker's "completed by the end of the year" doesn't have a chance barring some event unforeseen at this point and his attempt to acquire AA has less than a 50-50 chance of success.

Jim

Don't make the mistake of underestimating the deviousness of "Team Tempe". They are not operating "off the cuff" and have thought this thing through long and hard, you can bet on that. They have plenty more in their "play book" to keep this "punk the pilots" game going, trust!

A DFR from the East wouldn't have to succeed, just keep the JCBA delay game going till the American fences come down and the downtrodden East retires out the door. The only thing that would stop that process is a "voluntary" SLI agreement between the East and West and that has about as much chance of happening as peace in the Middle East!


seajay

 

[Dont call me Shirley]

Some years ago, I read "Skygods" by Robert Gandt, an account of Pan Am's decline. One section of the book was about the seniority flight between the PA and NA pilots; the latter group was much younger and less senior. IIRC, Pan Am had not hired a pilot in over ten years, NA had captains who had been hired later. (Instead of en Est vs West issue, it was "Blue and Orange").

There was some sort slotting proposed that no one liked. Unfortunately, I don't remember the final outcome. Does anyone know?

 

[cleardirect]

Don't make the mistake of underestimating the deviousness of "Team Tempe". They are not operating "off the cuff" and have thought this thing through long and hard, you can bet on that. They have plenty more in their "play book" to keep this "punk the pilots" game going, trust!

A DFR from the East wouldn't have to succeed, just keep the JCBA delay game going till the American fences come down and the downtrodden East retires out the door. The only thing that would stop that process is a "voluntary" SLI agreement between the East and West and that has about as much chance of happening as peace in the Middle East!


seajay

If as you admit team Tempe has thought this through. How would they a miss a huge piece that would allow the east to screw up and delay his deal for 7 more years?

Parker wants this deal done and running one airline. That is where the money will be not saving a few bucks on labor costs.

The 7 years fence will be for equipment not bases. So delaying until the downtrodden leaves does nothing for the downtrodden. It only helps the junior east pilots. Right there is the selfish attitude that has gotten us where we are today.

This time the east is the minority and the majority wants a deal. APA will be the bargaining agent without a vote. The AA pilots will vote in the new contract without needing a single east vote. A/M has a tight timeline. 20 days from the dispute. 90 day award from the close of arbitration. We will have a new CBA, a new contract and a new seniority. My estimate less then a year from the close of the merger.

No delay this time. The senior downtrodden guys will want to get paid this time.