US Pilots Labor Discussion

[cleardirect]

1) If that's indeed the case (which greatly differs from the feedback I hear from those junior), I expect that enough will make their wishes heard. I've no interest in any "bragging rights". It's a matter of personal principle for me...but that's backed by merely my own single vote, which amounts to precious little in the scheme of things.

2) Would we truly be affording any of them any actual security by dropping all, or almost all of the west folks on top of them? I'm assuming that your thoughts here contain the likely merger as well. I've little faith in that "security", since the APA people are the ONLY ones who've been "promised" a furlough-free situation. Perhaps we'd instead, just be finalizing their possible use as furlough-fodder.

This entire battle has been driven by the junior east pilots so I don't give a crap what they think. But here is where we are. Most of the east pilots have said Parker can't run an airline and Us Airways will probably be gone shortly stand alone. With a merger we are larger and less likely to fail. With a merger Parker will offer the contract he offered and it will be done quickly. Without the merger if the junior east pilots screw this up. US Airways may fail, Parker will NEVER offer anything close to what he offered. More than likely the Kirby, we will be another few years without a contract. Stand alone you will get the full Nicolau undiluted. With a merger contract and a diluted Nicolau. After a 4 year track record do you believe that usapa is even capable of getting a contract? Still willing to listen to the junior east pilots?

Explain why you think AA pilots don't want west pilot on top of them but are OK with having east pilots on top of them? AA does not care if it is an east or west pilot "dropped" on top of them. You guys need to understand that fact. The no furlough clause also includes the east and west pilots.

 

[dca319]

The BPR will be the body casting the vote, but I think the rank and file has already begun to tell them how they are expected to vote. Before long, most of the rank and file will know the phone numbers of their BPR reps by heart.

That's 100% correct. I can most assuredly claim that the phone calls received by our reps over the past few days have helped muzzle their rhetoric against the BPR officers. Along with the recall attempt, a clear signal has been sent that they are walking a fine line. Some here claim that everyone out east is still in battle mode against the Niclau, but that's not true. Piedmont, if I may, are you still in that mindset against the Niclau? Please don't feel obligated to respond.

 

[cleardirect]

"That's OK. It's fair." Ummm....interesting that the statement is made with complete ignorance of how any glorious arbitrator, or likely panel of in this scenario, would/will rule. Talk about nic "justification" philosophy at it's finest. Let's say, for the pure sake of argument, that the following scenario unfolds:

1) Furlough protection provided ONLY to the American side.
2) The "It's fair" arbitration (noted in advance), places all US pilots at the very bottom of, or very close to, in any combined list....With me so far? = Whatever any arbitrator(s) rule...well..no matter, since "It's fair", right?
3) Doug and buddies promise the moon to the APA and any/all American unions, just to get their grubby little hands on them and close the deal.
4) Doug and merry band of pirates realize they can't pay out as promised, and, within a short period of time, drag their newly acquired, freshly manipulated train wreck back into BK court, gutting the "promises"/contracts/etc.
5) Your sorry arse, along with perhaps even all, most all, or at least thousands of US people, are on the street within 2-4 years.

Still..."fair" for all concerned? I mean...aren't ALL arbitrations "fair"?....No matter what happens?

Addendum: "I can't rationalize a Nic type sli.." Indeed?...Why not? (This ought to be good fun) American is in BK...aren't they being "saved"? 😉

Were you talking about an AA merger of what usapa wants to do to the west pilots with your DOH list.

Placing all west pilots at the very bottom or close to it on a combined list. So when we have to furlough thousands of west pilots are on the street. An arbitrator is not going to do that. A group of selfish pilots from one side would.

Still think your DOH list is fair?

 

[dca319]

Kindly just spare us all such infantile BS...unless, of course, not so much as one of your fellow paradigms of perfection and legal respect has never so much as gotten a parking ticket.

It is this arrogance pointed at management and the west that has put us in this predicament. We always have thought we knew better. We thought we were smart than the bankruptcy judge, ALPAs EFA, Parker, the west that we lost sight of everything else. We would always open our eyes too late and then try to blame it on someone else because our position was irreversible. We cannot allow our hubris to jeopardize our chances at a good end to our careers with the same behavior.

 

[EastUS1]

This entire battle has been driven by the junior east pilots so I don't give a crap what they think.

Explain why you think AA pilots don't want west pilot on top of them but are OK with having east pilots on top of them? AA does not care if it is an east or west pilot "dropped" on top of them. You guys need to understand that fact. The no furlough clause also includes the east and west pilots.

"This entire battle has been driven by the junior east pilots.." An amusing assumption. Guess again....."...I don't give a crap what they think. " That sounds like "a personal problem" to me, since many of us out east DO care.

"Explain why you think AA pilots don't want west pilot on top of them but are OK with having east pilots on top of them?" Simple math. If you've a choice to make; would you prefer one older, who will be gone very shortly above you?...or having one placed over you for the duration of your working time? It matters not, as none of us here really have any say in how any blessed arbitration might work out. The APA will presumably forward whatever they feel most advantageous to their group. The US side would do the same....then...dice roll it seems.

 

[EastUS1]

It is this arrogance pointed at management and the west that has put us in this predicament. We always have thought we knew better. We thought we were smart than the bankruptcy judge, ALPAs EFA, Parker, the west that we lost sight of everything else. We would always open our eyes too late and then try to blame it on someone else because our position was irreversible. We cannot allow our hubris to jeopardize our chances at a good end to our careers with the same behavior.

OK. Please sum up, if you will, ANY perceived, REAL tactical or strategic gain to be had from joyously embracing the nic at this point in time? Seriously; what are the benefits, in REAL terms, for doing so? If there's some presumed, true leverage to be gained with doing so now...well...specifically; what would that be?

PS: "It is this arrogance pointed at management..." With this management?...Be serious. How much kowtowing and knee pad wearing would you suggest? What would be gained from such behavior?

 

[cleardirect]

"This entire battle has been driven by the junior east pilots.." An amusing assumption. Guess again....."...I don't give a crap what they think. " That sounds like "a personal problem" to me, since many of us out east DO care.

"Explain why you think AA pilots don't want west pilot on top of them but are OK with having east pilots on top of them?" Simple math. If you've a choice to make; would you prefer one older, who will be gone very shortly above you?...or having one placed over you for the duration of your working time? It matters not, as none of us here really have any say in how any blessed arbitration might work out. The APA will presumably forward whatever they feel most advantageous to their group. The US side would do the same....then...dice roll it seems.

Your "you will own the airline in 5 years so give us what we want now" line is not going to work on the AA pilots. APA has their own attrition which BTW is a lot bigger than the east or west.

Using your logic I guess you would be OK with reordering the list by age.

Another thing you guys don't understand. Arbitration is not a roll of the dice. You make a logical argument to the arbitrator. You don't make a hard line demand and hope he splits the baby. That is what you complained about right. That Nicolau did not split the baby.

 

[dca319]

OK. Please sum up, if you will, ANY perceived, REAL tactical or strategic gain to be had from joyously embracing the nic at this point in time? Seriously; what are the benefits, in REAL terms, for doing so? If there's some presumed, true leverage to be gained with doing so now...well...specifically; what would that be?

PS: "It is this arrogance pointed at management..." With this management?...Be serious. How much kowtowing and knee pad wearing would you suggest? What would be gained from such behavior?

The advantages of accepting the Niclau, in my opinion, are plentiful. One, we can end this perpetual litigation and redirect our money and other resources toward this merger. We can also recruit the more talented west pilots who can offer their assistance to the merger committee and NAC. I understand that they have a highly knowledgable PBS team that could guide both sides. By accepting the Niclau, that wall we have now would go down and our union could function not only between east and west but also between east and east. That distraction would be gone!
And as for your knee pads, i didn't mean to imply that we roll over and show our belly. We came in to this merger thinking we'd roll over Parker which didn't happen. I'd think a working relationship would have been more productive. Do you think have an injunction slapped on us or having negotiations stopped has been the way to have approached Parker? More would have been gained than what we have now. Right now we have gained irrelevance. Parker knows all he needs is their blessing. He can take or leave ours.
East, Cleary's way failed and that's obvious. Don't you think it's time for a different approach?

 

[nic4us]

A320

Notice the many similarities in a potential AA/LCC SLi as where in AAA/AWA.
I dare any westies to rationalize same Nic type sli with AA.
Thus far they are restraining their chutzpah with silence. Good for them.

FA

It matters not what any West pilots rationalizes.....only what an arbitrator rationalizes.

I am guessing slotting by equiptment and status (i.e. "Nic type SLI) would be the order of the day.

 

[fodase]

So are you sending your dues by mail? Or will you be the first pilot to help the company out with overstaffing by getting terminated?

Do you think the west is "simple minded" like you hicks? All of the west is coming off of DCO, we will pay our dues by mail, all of us. You want to know why? I am sure you can figure out what the west is about to do to your scab union, maybe not.

 

[dca319]

A320

Notice the many similarities in a potential AA/LCC SLi as where in AAA/AWA.
I dare any westies to rationalize same Nic type sli with AA.
Thus far they are restraining their chutzpah with silence. Good for them.

FA

I do believe the attorneys on the APA side have suggested to them it will be a slotting using relative seniority. They even added an example to clarify.

 

[dca319]

I went through my PMs and found a message from heretic accusing me of being a PHX based pilot. It is truly a sad state of affairs that our own pilots find it necessary to discount each other as either as weak willed, traitor, and now PHX pilot because someone wants change. After 7 years of doing that same thing, I would have thought it obvious.

 

[EastUS1]

Do you think the west is "simple minded" like you hicks?

Ummm.....well...there are indeed "some" out west that routinely present compelling evidence of even that notion being overly generous, but, I certainly know better than to assume you're the best they've got, having chatted with far better.

 

[N924PS]

Ummm.....well...there are indeed "some" out west that routinely present compelling evidence of even that notion being overly generous, but, I certainly know better than to assume you're the best they've got, having chatted with far better.

Yes, and the East has Claxon/Nostradamus/Sumadartson, Sealbeater, Luvthe9, and Captain Verbosity, et al.

Clearly the East at it's best...

 

[EastUS1]

We can also recruit the more talented west pilots who can offer their assistance to the merger committee and NAC. I understand that they have a highly knowledgable PBS team that could guide both sides. By accepting the Niclau, that wall we have now would go down and our union could function not only between east and west but also between east and east. That distraction would be gone!
And as for your knee pads, i didn't mean to imply that we roll over and show our belly. We came in to this merger thinking we'd roll over Parker which didn't happen. I'd think a working relationship would have been more productive. Do you think have an injunction slapped on us or having negotiations stopped has been the way to have approached Parker? More would have been gained than what we have now. Right now we have gained irrelevance. Parker knows all he needs is their blessing. He can take or leave ours.
East, Cleary's way failed and that's obvious. Don't you think it's time for a different approach?

Who have you in mind as being "the more talented west pilots who can offer their assistance to the merger committee and NAC."? = Honest question, not meant as bait of any kind.

Your point is well taken as to PBS, as none east, that I'm aware of anyway, have ready, in depth knowledge of the ins and outs of that. Given that any combined contract looks to include that; it's my cynical suspicion that reasonably self interested west input would be available, nic or not.

I've considerable skepticism as to how well the union could launch any love festivals between west-east, regardless of any/all actions potentially taken at this point. The last I see from west posters is that they're all in a frenzy to discontinue dues payments, and, of course, seek out the union's demise yesterday, if not sooner....nothing new in any of that.

"Right now we have gained irrelevance." I'll submit that, based upon the size of the APA and Parker's lust for American, that little or no additional "influence" would be made practically possible, other than what currently exists, regardless of any magically achieved "unity" at this hour.

"And as for your knee pads, i didn't mean to imply that we roll over and show our belly." That is reassuring, as I've yet to see where ANY concern for employees exists at ALL within the management team...save for themselves, of course. I'm interested in what steps you envision as being the route to establishing "a working relationship" with those people would entail....and what tangible benefits would spring forth from such....????