US Pilots Labor Discussion

[EastUS1]

Close out section 22 with the NIC and draft a letter to Doug stating that USAPA is fully ready to work with Management to secure a merger with AA which is believed to be in the best interest of all parties.

Let me ask a question...which is the riskier strategy to the east pilots/USAPA of the three options below:

1. Oppose the merger in defiance of Management's clear intentions
2. Remaining parked in negotiations while waiting for Silver to make her ruling
3. Put the NIC+Kirby TA out for ratification before any merger is announced with AA so that east and west pilots can work together should merger discussions begin with APA

Both west folk immediately suggest dropping DOH. Fair enough as a negotiating concept...but...in exchange for WHAT from management's side? I'd think that, by this time, all concerned are more than marginally clear that the nic fails to serve any apparent best interests of the east majority in the pilot group.

2. I'm not immediately seeing where remaining parked in negotiations, for just a contract within US, harms the overall US pilot position at this point. Please expand on that if you will.
3. Ummmm...seriously!? Hasn't it been pretty much agreed by all that the kirby's essentially concessionary?..or, at the very least, most CERTAINLY nothing approaching any "industry standard" contract offer. What possible, tangible benefit would accrue to the group from taking it now? "so that east and west pilots can work together" seems rather a bit thin as any justification for doing so. The APA's been offered FAR better than the pathetic kirby. Why should the US people, if any options exist, willingly accept less?

 

[fodase]

Both west folk immediately suggest dropping DOH. Fair enough as a negotiating concept...but...in exchange for WHAT from management's side? I'd think that, by this time, all concerned are more than marginally clear that the nic fails to serve any apparent best interests of the east majority in the pilot group.

In exchange for a voice in this merger, for a voice in a future contract.

2. I'm not immediately seeing where remaining parked in negotiations, for just a contract within US, harms the overall US pilot position at this point. Please expand on that if you will.

That's right you guys enjoy loa 93, so at this point why not just sit on your hands and continue separate ops while foregoing the amr contract, up to you guys.

3. Ummmm...seriously!? Hasn't it been pretty much agreed by all that the kirby's essentially concessionary?..or, at the very least, most CERTAINLY nothing approaching any "industry standard" contract offer. What possible, tangible benefit would accrue to the group from taking it now? "so that east and west pilots can work together" seems rather a bit thin as any justification for doing so. The APA's been offered FAR better than the pathetic kirby. Why should the US people, if any options exist, willingly accept less?

Exactly, so why wouldn't it be better to work with the company and apa instead of fighting them from a position of weakness?

 

[dca319]

Stop being idiots and work together to get the best deal. By idiots I mean quit trying to overreach and be smart with your positions, being able to back up things with facts. IOW don't demand NIC use the retirement numbers as capital for a better integration, don't make stupid demands.

Unfortunately the use of Niclau is out of our hands. Years ago I spoke with our then ALPA reps about date of hire. I told them it was too aggressive. We overreached then and now we complain that the west overreaches with Niclau. There is no one to negotiate for the west and anything we do will ring on the DFR. I spoke with Jack S. before ALPA lost this property and he said this would happen with us voting on USAPA and he was correct.

 

[cleardirect]

Perhaps some suggested, actual "thought" might enhance your position. All you've just done is assist me in making my point. The guy with a decade of global heavy time clearly has more personal experience than your other example. Who's opinion on global airlift would you most value?

Your other "point" is equally well received: "It is true you can't fix stupid."

What does his experience have to do with his DOH? You do know people gain experience prior to getting hired at their present airline correct? Well maybe you don't understand that.

My point being it was stupid to ask what someones DOH was in relationship to a political question.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Both west folk immediately suggest dropping DOH. Fair enough as a negotiating concept...but...in exchange for WHAT from management's side? I'd think that, by this time, all concerned are more than marginally clear that the nic fails to serve any apparent best interests of the east majority in the pilot group.

2. I'm not immediately seeing where remaining parked in negotiations, for just a contract within US, harms the overall US pilot position at this point. Please expand on that if you will.
3. Ummmm...seriously!? Hasn't it been pretty much agreed by all that the kirby's essentially concessionary?..or, at the very least, most CERTAINLY nothing approaching any "industry standard" contract offer. What possible, tangible benefit would accrue to the group from taking it now? "so that east and west pilots can work together" seems rather a bit thin as any justification for doing so. The APA's been offered FAR better than the pathetic kirby. Why should the US people, if any options exist, willingly accept less?

Having a voice at the table (one that is listened to rather than being dismissed as purely irrational like USAPA has proven over the past four years) seems to be more favorable than watching decisions being made about your position with the company from the sidelines. Maybe it's just me but I would want to be considered an ally rather than an opponent when it comes to being involved with the merger discussions and plans.

Of course seriously. Neither Management nor APA is going to take USAPA seriously over the next few months unless they can prove to be rational and motivated to improve their current status and standing. The most expedient way of gaining a new level of bargaining power and have a voice in future transactions is to bring the two groups together in a unified manner with a single CBA. The only way to ensure that can happen is to begin closing out all of the sections of the TA very rapidly. And the only way to do that is to accept the NIC and make only modest adjustments to the Kirby proposal and then send a TA out before the ink is dried on a US/AA merger announcement. That gains the seat at the future negotiating table and is gains USAPA the minimum level of credibility needed to begin a new transaction (not to mention stops the cash bleed going to the lawyers on a untenable wild goose chase). It might also be a nice feather in the cap as it were when the SLI issue goes before another arbitrator. Imagine how such an arbitrator would view USAPA and all US pilots if they continue to cast aspersions on the binding nature of the very same services he provides. Isn't that like going to court and saying in your opening statement "your honor I believe all judges are incompetent and ineffective, but I would like you to hear my testimony on this matter anyway"?

 

[dca319]

Really? I sent my ballot in.

There is definitely a recall under way in PHL. It may not succeed, but ballots are indeed being submitted and collected.

Thank you. This is for our own good.

 

[cleardirect]

Clear,

You quote me above and ask why I ask about DOH year.
Are you serious?
You don't think a pov might be different with 38 vs 8 years Los ?
Gimme a break!

Can you answer a Question?
Yes or No will do with rhetoric aside.
Do you believe with negotiated C&R 's agreed to that Los should be primary factor ( not only ) in determining SLI ?

FA

what does 38-8 years have to do with which rep you support? Are you saying that the junior guy will only support the rep with 8 years?


Negotiated C&R's? Did SWA/Air tran use LOS as the primary factor? No. Was LOS used as the primary factor in the AA/TWA merger? No.

So my answer is no.

In arbitrated SLI. Is LOS the primary factor? No!

What does A/M policy list as the primary factor to be used? Hint, it does not list one. The only thing it list is fair and equitable. Fair and equitable being was the process followed. Not what was the outcome.

 

[fodase]

Having a voice at the table (one that is listened to rather than being dismissed as purely irrational like USAPA has proven over the past four years) seems to be more favorable than watching decisions being made about your position with the company from the sidelines. Maybe it's just me but I would want to be considered an ally rather than an opponent when it comes to being involved with the merger discussions and plans.

Of course seriously. Neither Management nor APA is going to take USAPA seriously over the next few months unless they can prove to be rational and motivated to improve their current status and standing. The most expedient way of gaining a new level of bargaining power and have a voice in future transactions is to bring the two groups together in a unified manner with a single CBA. The only way to ensure that can happen is to begin closing out all of the sections of the TA very rapidly. And the only way to do that is to accept the NIC and make only modest adjustments to the Kirby proposal and then send a TA out before the ink is dried on a US/AA merger announcement. That gains the seat at the future negotiating table and is gains USAPA the minimum level of credibility needed to begin a new transaction (not to mention stops the cash bleed going to the lawyers on a untenable wild goose chase). It might also be a nice feather in the cap as it were when the SLI issue goes before another arbitrator. Imagine how such an arbitrator would view USAPA and all US pilots if they continue to cast aspersions on the binding nature of the very same services he provides. Isn't that like going to court and saying in your opening statement "your honor I believe all judges are incompetent and ineffective, but I would like you to hear my testimony on this matter anyway"?

Callaway, you are out in left field with this idea of a contract for our side. This will be just like dal/nwa, a contract is passed by the majority and then offered to the minority, They aren;t going to waste time and resources on our side, bank on that.

 

[cleardirect]

Stop being idiots and work together to get the best deal. By idiots I mean quit trying to overreach and be smart with your positions, being able to back up things with facts. IOW don't demand NIC use the retirement numbers as capital for a better integration, don't make stupid demands.

Retirement capital? You mean like you are for the older guys? Wanting them to give up a new contract for you so you can take their seat?

AA has their own retirements and more than the east. You "capital" is not worth anything.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Callaway, you are out in left field with this idea of a contract for our side. This will be just like dal/nwa, a contract is passed by the majority and then offered to the minority, They aren;t going to waste time and resources on our side, bank on that.

There is a window of time where USAPA could close out a CBA that makes sense for both sides. The US/AA merger isn't anywhere near a certainty at this point and Management would still very much like to close out the pilot contract and get out of fighting legal battles over seniority. If the US/AA merger goes forward, it will be a short-lived contract or at least the logistics will be limited to managing two pilot groups instead of three for whatever transition period there may be. It would still be a win-win for Management at this stage. They either get to have a cleaner merger with the APA pilots, or they get to finally have a JCBA for all US pilots even if the merger fails to move forward.

You are correct though, that if the UCC approve of US' reorganization plan, then I don't think Management would bother with a USAPA contract. So, this must be done quickly to attain any possible value. The choice for USAPA is sidelined and parked or working cooperatively with the merger process to have the greatest amount of input on the overall structure. If they choose to be sidelined they will be steamrolled and totally irrelevant to about 99% of what transpires. I think we all know which option they will go with.

 

[fodase]

There is a window of time where USAPA could close out a CBA that makes sense for both sides. The US/AA merger isn't anywhere near a certainty at this point and Management would still very much like to close out the pilot contract and get out of fighting legal battles over seniority. If the US/AA merger goes forward, it will be a short-lived contract or at least the logistics will be limited to managing two pilot groups instead of three for whatever transition period there may be. It would still be a win-win for Management at this stage. They either get to have a cleaner merger with the APA pilots, or they get to finally have a JCBA for all US pilots even if the merger fails to move forward.

You are correct though, that if the UCC approve of US' reorganization plan, then I don't think Management would bother with a USAPA contract. So, this must be done quickly to attain any possible value. The choice for USAPA is sidelined and parked or working cooperatively with the merger process to have the greatest amount of input on the overall structure. If they choose to be sidelined they will be steamrolled an totally irrelevant to about 99% of what transpires. I think we all know which option they will go with.

I see your point but cannot see how it is in any way possible. The east will wait for Silver, then if it doesn't go their way they will appeal. This alone will take a year.

 

[fatherabraham]

Recent westie posters,

The Chutzpah of you guys is unbelievable!

Listen up........No rational Eastie is buying the notion that somehow you folk hold the leverage card in any matter ( ie AA sli ) concerning the Nic. We have NOT and will NOT just forget what the 9th put in writing.

So keep your precious Nic safely tucked in that sun less void, we really are not threatened by your unending scenarios that imply

But but but ........if you only accept Nic .......Blah Blah Blah

FA

 

[traderjake]

Could also be that he can see what some on both sides can't. There are no absolutes in any given situation.

Please explain how it's not wrong to renege on a mutually agreed upon arbitration process just because you don't like the result.

 

[cleardirect]

Recent westie posters,

The Chutzpah of you guys is unbelievable!

Listen up........No rational Eastie is buying the notion that somehow you folk hold the leverage card in any matter ( ie AA sli ) concerning the Nic. We have NOT and will NOT just forget what the 9th put in writing.

So keep your precious Nic safely tucked in that sun less void, we really are not threatened by your unending scenarios that imply

But but but ........if you only accept Nic .......Blah Blah Blah

FA

Rational eastie? There is a rarely used term.

You keep reminding any body that will listen what the ninth said. But events are going to over run you. Welcome to the minority boys. The majority is not going to let you guys screw this merger up like you did the last one.

 

[traderjake]

I hope you're right but I'll be surprised if the merger actually happens.

Parker wants it and the AA employees say they want it but it's not their call.