US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Pi brat]

How do you feel about the hostage situation? This time, I am pulling for USAPA. I'll be curious how it goes today.

Good Morning CP1,

I know 2 of those guys well and I have a hard time believing they did anything out of line. I think the company might have gotten the wrong guys and I hope innocent people aren't damaged. There are other names I would have excepted to see on that list before them and for reasons other than what the CLT update listed.

 

[No Land Green]

If there is a final outcome, why are here arguing about it? Why is the Nic not in use? Why are there court battles going on? Why don't I have any west brothers and sisters flying with me. It's not final by a long shot.

Hi Brat,

Section 22 of the JCBA is a "bargaining position" as is every other section of the JCBA before it gets ratified via a passing vote. It is amendable, as is every other section of the contract, i.e. crew meals, pay rates, vacation, etc........I believe that is how the Courts view it also.

Best,

NLG

 

[767one]

Good Morning CP1,

I know 2 of those guys well and I have a hard time believing they did anything out of line. I think the company might have gotten the wrong guys and I hope innocent people aren't damaged. There are other names I would have excepted to see on that list before them and for reasons other than what the CLT update listed.

Hi Pi,

You know this company has a tendency to use a cannon loaded with grapeshot and aim it at the whole group when a bb gun would have worked just as well. More than likely it will backfire on them........again.

Regards,


Bob

 

[Pi brat]

Don't be so amazed. I got to see first hand how your group operates in 2000.



Nope. Never called you a child molester. Just said you are part of a group (USAPA) who protects the job of one.

More lies from you Pi? You are becoming more and more like your buddy Nos by the day.

And I have seen how SOME of you group operated in 2000, but I tried to not label your entire group by the bad behavior of the sample I happened to have made the mistake of giving my jumpseat to, and that I had to ride in vans with. The merger never happened, so we really never got into the process back then.

You played Jim's "game" and if not outright calling us that, gave the implication. I'm not going back through 1700 pages of b.s. to look for them, but I remember you posts crossing the line and I called you on it. You tried to back track then, as now.

I once listen to you opinion as an outside observer, not any more. You have proven yourself and I will never forget it.

 

[No Land Green]

Hi Pi,

You know this company has a tendency to use a cannon loaded with grapeshot and aim it at the whole group when a bb gun would have worked just as well. More than likely it will backfire on them........again.

Regards,


Bob

Hi Bob,

I just show up to work and do the job I've been hired to do. What is so hysterical is that more often than not, someone else outside of the flight deck always manages to "step up to the plate" to bungle things up. I just sit back and laugh.........

Best,

NLG

 

[Pi brat]

Wrong! Failure to live up to your word and failure to follow merger policy is why we are here today. If east pilots would have abided by your agreement this would all be settled.

This might shock you, but you're right on this one. If the east had completed the process, and not tried to alter that section of the contract, we wouldn't be here. Thing is, we did, and we are. ALPA merger policy and the list Nicolau produced with his interpretation of it, produced something that east pilots felt was so egregious that they could not live with it. A lot of people told you that and your group felt that they could or would not make any changes, so here we are in civil war. Absolutely your right. Saying woulda, shoulda, coulda won't change that.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Hi Brat,

Section 22 of the JCBA is a "bargaining position" as is every other section of the JCBA before it gets ratified via a passing vote. It is amendable, as is every other section of the contract, i.e. crew meals, pay rates, vacation, etc........I believe that is how the Courts view it also.

Best,

NLG

Are the resolutions to those other sections covered by the TA in the same way that section 22 is covered and mutually agreed upon? The lower court ruled the DFR claim against USAPA was ripe and that their actions constituted a DFR which led to an injunction against using anything other than the NIC for section 22. The court of appeals ruled the DFR claim was not ripe until a JCBA is ratified. So, the only court that has issued a ruling on the merits of the DFR claim has found USAPA guilty of violating the rights of the west pilots.

 

[Ames]

It looks like the company is about to step on their crank......again. They tried this a while back and got their ass handed to them by the FAA. I would write up oxygen below 1,000 psi in an heartbeat and have written it up for being about 1,100 psi when about to go etops. NOTHING in our so called flight manuals will tell you how long 1,000 # will last in hrs. and min. and I doubt it will last 120 min or 180 min. With the number of problems with fumes and problems with Boeing windshield heat I think it only common sense to make sure you are above min. when going long haul domestic or etops. And how about the company telling you it is ok to sit at the gate with the doors closed knowing you have made one exit unusable? My answer to that is if the exit is able to be put on mel I will consider it otherwise find another pilot. I think the CP's should tell Tempe to shove it and go find a new CP but I don't see that happening.

Happy Memorial day and pass the Tylenol


Bob

Yes, but do you write up that O2 30 minutes prior or at departure time. There may be other factors involved. I am certain that management is choosing its battles carefully. After all, you eastholes taught them to do that.

 

[Pi brat]

Hi Brat,

Section 22 of the JCBA is a "bargaining position" as is every other section of the JCBA before it gets ratified via a passing vote. It is amendable, as is every other section of the contract, i.e. crew meals, pay rates, vacation, etc........I believe that is how the Courts view it also.

Best,

NLG

Good morning NLG,

I understand the logic and although I have little understanding of the law it seems to me that the 9th is thinking the same way when Judge Silver talks about them having heart burn with the company not negotiating.

The thing is, the union has a duty to fairly represent all pilots, and if we get through all the mine fields and actually get a contract to vote on with USAPA proposal in section 22, the west will not feel fairly represented. Although I don't like to make predictions, I will go way out here and say they will sue us again . Will USAPA's list and C&Rs pass the test? I have no idea, but they lost in record time in PHX. I believe USAPA thinks it was all because of Judge Wake and not being able to put on their whole case, but I'm not sure that was all of it and they should take a look at what happened out there, and reassess. The gap between the Nic and USAPA's position is huge and the difference between the two is that the Nic came from a supposedly neutral third party, and USAPA's was done solely by the east. I think that might stand out to a judge or jury, especially because most people do not understand our jobs and what all of this means to us. Is Seham the one to help them understand. I'm not too confident in him.

Take care.

 

[Ames]

Easy to say when you're on the side of the fence where 17 year furloughees is the norm and your pilot group's average age (and LOS) is higher than most, even though they occupy the lowest paid, lowest seniority positions in the industry. ie: junior reserve 737 & A320 f/o after over 17 years. (That's a new hire position for most airlines, btw.) Tragic, yes. But a fact of life for the east. No one, anywhere in this industry, is sympathetic to your sense of entitlement or your attempt to repair your career on the backs of others. Your true colors were exposed in 2000 and are still showing today.

Jetz gets it, as do the pilots of all other airlines. Why do you think that Delta pilots (in the middle of a bankruptcy) rebuffed a merger with US?

 

[No Land Green]

Are the resolutions to those other sections covered by the TA in the same way that section 22 is covered and mutually agreed upon? The lower court ruled the DFR claim against USAPA was ripe and that their actions constituted a DFR which led to an injunction against using anything other than the NIC for section 22. The court of appeals ruled the DFR claim was not ripe until a JCBA is ratified. So, the only court that has issued a ruling on the merits of the DFR claim has found USAPA guilty of violating the rights of the west pilots.

It's a bargaining position, private arbitration that lived within ALPA. Judge Wake didn't understand that. Judge Silver appears to understand it after reading her transcripts. Again, it is modifiable as is every other section of the contract.

 

[Ames]

False.

So, you are saying that in 2005, when this clusterfcuk began, the east did not have 1989 hires on furlough - or at best flying MDA commuter aircraft?
This is documented. Prove otherwise.

 

[No Land Green]

Jetz gets it, as do the pilots of all other airlines. Why do you think that Delta pilots (in the middle of a bankruptcy) rebuffed a merger with US?

One reason is Parker and his stance to pay ALL his pilots sub industry average wages. Make fun of LOA 93 all you want, but the West CBA and Kirby proposal is far from industry standard. Tempe doesn't want to pay us, no matter what Seniority List is used.

 

[Pi brat]

Hi Pi,

You know this company has a tendency to use a cannon loaded with grapeshot and aim it at the whole group when a bb gun would have worked just as well. More than likely it will backfire on them........again.

Regards,


Bob

Good morning Bob,

Yes they do. That was the problem I had with the fuel school. I think the company has the right to ask me why I did what I did, but they should do it in the proper manner. The fuel school was not it.

I will see if I can find the Hemmingway letter the CLT update talks about, but I do seem to remember something about writing up "minor discrepancies". I don't have a definition of minor in my FOM, how about you? I wonder if the company or FAA could provide me a list of things that are minor and ok to not right up. Also, on the O2, the letter from Mr. Morrell says that we are not unsafe(i agree, just entering a phase of potentially troublesome pilot-management relations) and that if the captain feels the operation of his/her aircraft is unsafe he/she will stop the operation until the problem is corrected. How can they publish that then tell a captain headed over some big rocks, in a less than stellar performing A/C that they should not demand more O2, no matter what time he/she decided he/she needed more? I hope the pilots and union reps have a copy of Morrell's letter. Every pilot should make a copy and carry it with them.

 

[CallawayGolf]

It's a bargaining position, private arbitration that lived within ALPA. Judge Wake didn't understand that. Judge Silver appears to understand it after reading her transcripts. Again, it is modifiable as is every other section of the contract.

You are torturing the facts to have them say what you want them to say rather than looking at them with an unbiased eye. Wake and Bybee saw the matter as both ripe and as having merit. Tashima and Graber (or their clerks) saw the matter as not ripe and offered some insights on how this matter might be resolved without going back to court once the matter was deemed ripe by their definition.

Silver hasn’t ruled on anything yet and it would be premature to predict what she will do or say. Consistent with her reputation, she hit all sides with some jabs here and there and I believe there is no way of knowing how she will respond as a matter of law. My interpretation is that she sees the same harm to the west that was found in judge Wake’s courtroom, but she does not want to issue a ruling that is inconsistent with the ninth’s definition of ripeness. Siegel made an excellent case as to why this matter is ripe for adjudication. Time will tell, though for judge Silver that could be a very long time given her case backlog.