US Pilots Labor Discussion

[Pi brat]

Jetz gets it, as do the pilots of all other airlines. Why do you think that Delta pilots (in the middle of a bankruptcy) rebuffed a merger with US?

Jetz gets nothing and is just like Jim, he has a decades long chip on his shoulder. Every DL pilot I talked to during Dougie's failed merger attempt with them told me that they didn't want the management group leading them and that they knew he would use Ch 11 to shed THEIR aircraft to shrink the new airline and clean up US's weaknesses. They were right and I agreed with them.

 

[No Land Green]

Yes, but do you write up that O2 30 minutes prior or at departure time. There may be other factors involved. I am certain that management is choosing its battles carefully. After all, you eastholes taught them to do that.

The "other factors" are lack of parts, location of parts, lack of response time after the item is reported in a timely fashion, etc.. Like I said earlier, I do the job I am paid to do, but there is always some one else who "steps up to the plate". I "act" while on the "job", it's the others who lack "job" "action"....LMAO!!!!!!

 

[No Land Green]

You are torturing the facts to have them say what you want them to say rather than looking at them with an unbiased eye. Wake and Bybee saw the matter as both ripe and as having merit. Tashima and Graber (or their clerks) saw the matter as not ripe and offered some insights on how this matter might be resolved without going back to court once the matter was deemed ripe by their definition.

Silver hasn’t ruled on anything yet and it would be premature to predict what she will do or say. Consistent with her reputation, she hit all sides with some jabs here and there and I believe there is no way of knowing how she will respond as a matter of law. My interpretation is that she sees the same harm to the west that was found in judge Wake’s courtroom, but she does not want to issue a ruling that is inconsistent with the ninth’s definition of ripeness. Siegel made an excellent case as to why this matter is ripe for adjudication. Time will tell, though for judge Silver that could be a very long time given her case backlog.

It's a "bargaining position", no bias here. How does the West CBA Section 22 define seniority? Will that be amended in the JCBA?

 

[end_of_alpa]

You are torturing the facts to have them say what you want them to say rather than looking at them with an unbiased eye. Wake and Bybee saw the matter as both ripe and as having merit. Tashima and Graber (or their clerks) saw the matter as not ripe and offered some insights on how this matter might be resolved without going back to court once the matter was deemed ripe by their definition.

Silver hasn’t ruled on anything yet and it would be premature to predict what she will do or say. Consistent with her reputation, she hit all sides with some jabs here and there and I believe there is no way of knowing how she will respond as a matter of law. My interpretation is that she sees the same harm to the west that was found in judge Wake’s courtroom, but she does not want to issue a ruling that is inconsistent with the ninth’s definition of ripeness. Siegel made an excellent case as to why this matter is ripe for adjudication. Time will tell, though for judge Silver that could be a very long time given her case backlog.

Bybee generally agreed with the majority. He thought that, however, the merits could be addressed. The majority said they could only legally address ripeness at this time. Procedural due process trumps substantive. That's the way it works.

Secondly, the majority stated that The court cannot fashion a remedy that will alleviate the plaintiffs harm. (see pg. 8007-8).

If any harm could be found it could only be after the vote, not before. Believe what you want, here is the odds the way I see it

95 percent- lack of jurisdiction as a matter of law.

2.5 percent- find for count two (USAPA and company free to change terms of seniority) as a matter of law.

2.5 percent both counts 1 and 3

Siegel made a case...not an excellent case. His stammering cost him when asked what it would take to "buy us off". Judge silver is NOT an ex-officio member of the company NOR the union. She's not allowed to interfere with the negotiating process no matter how you think it should go. USAPA and the company. The only JABS I read was in her discussion with Siegel. Seham gave her a good brief about the pace of negotiations and about how to resolve the issue. You don't like Seham, I know that. However, step back and read it again. She was VERY reluctant to see how Siegel should get a second bite at the apple when both Wake and Silver addresses the companies opportunity early in the trial when they asked for their dismissal from the suit for lack of ripeness.

It was actually poor planning on the part of the Ninth when USAPA was denied the interlocutory appeal addressing the lack of ripeness. Oh well. It's only money!

That's it. Good luck

 

[nic4us]

Yes, but do you write up that O2 30 minutes prior or at departure time. There may be other factors involved. I am certain that management is choosing its battles carefully. After all, you eastholes taught them to do that.

Latest usapa update.."Hostages taken"...

What the east pilots need to ask themselves is really quite simple. Have any West "hostages" been taken, and why is that?

I run the APU whenever needed, often start it way before 20 minutes prior, start it almost every flight after landing. Have not heard word one from anybody.

I land flaps full almost exclusively, completely disregard the NRP, write up anything I think needs writing up? Have never been questioned.

If I want more fuel, I bump the load. I change altitudes at my leisure, operate at .80 mach if warranted, I have delayed flights to get all the connects and revenue onboard.

Bottom line is, I take my authority and resposibility seriously. I use my authority to operate in the safest, most efficient manner, that is in the best interest of the crew, the passengers, and THE COMPANY....in that order. I have never tried to use that authority to ..stick it to the man..or teach the company a lesson about who is boss.

I have never made a decision based on some percieved intimidation of what the CP office might think, or will they call me about this. That is all very secondary, they have never called, and if they did and I had some splaining to do...so what? The way I am operating, it would become evident as to how the company benefitted from my actions.

On the West, I have always felt that the CP office and the training department are there for the pilots they serve, not the other way around. When the "fuel school" situation occured, I sided with usapa (training should be completely seperated from discipline), but had to wonder what singled those 8 pilots out.

Now I have to ask myself, what singled out these 4 pilots....and, have any West hostages been take?

 

[767jetz]

And I have seen how SOME of you group operated in 2000, but I tried to not label your entire group by the bad behavior of the sample I happened to have made the mistake of giving my jumpseat to, and that I had to ride in vans with. The merger never happened, so we really never got into the process back then.

I gave every one of you the benefit of the doubt back then. In the beginning of that ACQUISITION, I used to scold the UA pilots who would bad mouth you guys and labeled the whole group. (And yes it was an acquisition. UA was ESOP and the employees owned the company and were buying US with OUR cash. It was our airline - we had the stock and the board members to prove it.) Then I saw it first hand. At the time I was commuting to NY. Jumpseats, crew vans, etc. EVERY east pilot I ran into and had a discussion with proved that I was far too trusting. Then came the clowns on this very website who sealed the deal for me. Every property has their "2-percenters." But in my personal experience it was 100% of the east pilots. Not a single one of the many I encountered took a non-confrontational approach. Not one sought to find common ground. Every single one had the same talking points to include lectures of DOH, condescending "we've been through this before and know how it works, junior" attitudes, "see you in arbitration" comments, and their future plans of which UA aircraft and domiciles they will bid when they finally leave their crappy 737-200 behind. Every one. Coincidence? I think not.

You played Jim's "game" and if not outright calling us that, gave the implication. I'm not going back through 1700 pages of b.s. to look for them, but I remember you posts crossing the line and I called you on it. You tried to back track then, as now.

More lies Pi. Or revisionist history, as you guys are so good at. The guilt by association is Nos' game, not mine or Jim's. No need to sift through any pages. Everyone knows it, including you. You thought I crossed a line when I attacked Nos. Circling the wagon, as Jim puts it, to stick up for your partner in crime. I never retracted anything or backtracked. If something was deleted it was by someone else because of all the east crybabies who can dish it out but can't take the same. You are repeating Nos' recent lies about me retracting, and I even reposted it a few days ago just to prove you both wrong.

Since we're setting records straight I will repeat exactly what I accused him of again, to refresh everyone's memory. (This means you Nos) Just so there's no mistake. Joseph Pereira, a 55 year old USAirways Captain, was caught, arrested, and convicted of taking upskirt photos of a 15 year old girl. HERE'S A LINK. He was suspended from his job, BUT NOT FIRED. USAPA has helped protect his job so that he may return to the cockpit after his suspension expires. They do this even as the same union tries to get west pilots fired for ALLEGED identity theft. Apparently, according to USAPA, alleged identity theft = bad; convicted pedophile = not so bad.

I assume the poster formerly known as Nostradamus is a member in good standing with USAPA. So therefore it appears that the poster formerly known as Nostradamus is part of a group that protects a pedophile.

THAT is what I said. THAT is what I still believe. (Choke on it! I'm still waiting for that phone call from UAL HR for having a low opinion of a furloughed east scab with nothing but a bad reputation and full of hot air.)

I once listen to you opinion as an outside observer, not any more. You have proven yourself and I will never forget it.

I once thought you were a moderate, rational thinker because you didn't appear to accept everything fed to you by USAPA. But you've long since proven that beyond your talk of solutions, the fact is that there are no agreeable solutions for you that include the rule of law, or anything that deviates more than a half step from USAPA's intended goal. You've also proven to be nothing more than a cheerleader for your fellow east posters here. Good cop - bad cop? Yeah, you've proven yourself, so the feeling is quite mutual.

 

[No Land Green]

Latest usapa update.."Hostages taken"...

What the east pilots need to ask themselves is really quite simple. Have any West "hostages" been taken, and why is that?

I run the APU whenever needed, often start it way before 20 minutes prior, start it almost every flight after landing. Have not heard word one from anybody.

I land flaps full almost exclusively, completely disregard the NRP, write up anything I think needs writing up? Have never been questioned.

If I want more fuel, I bump the load. I change altitudes at my leisure, operate at .80 mach if warranted, I have delayed flights to get all the connects and revenue onboard.

Bottom line is, I take my authority and resposibility seriously. I use my authority to operate in the safest, most efficient manner, that is in the best interest of the crew, the passengers, and THE COMPANY....in that order. I have never tried to use that authority to ..stick it to the man..or teach the company a lesson about who is boss.

I have never made a decision based on some percieved intimidation of what the CP office might think, or will they call me about this. That is all very secondary, they have never called, and if they did and I had some splaining to do...so what? The way I am operating, it would become evident as to how the company benefitted from my actions.

On the West, I have always felt that the CP office and the training department are there for the pilots they serve, not the other way around. When the "fuel school" situation occured, I sided with usapa (training should be completely seperated from discipline), but had to wonder what singled those 8 pilots out.

Now I have to ask myself, what singled out these 4 pilots....and, have any West hostages been take?

Good post there nic4. The East Pilots operate the same way, it's what we are paid to do. The short answer to your question, divide and conquer.

 

[cleardirect]

It's a bargaining position, private arbitration that lived within ALPA. Judge Wake didn't understand that. Judge Silver appears to understand it after reading her transcripts. Again, it is modifiable as is every other section of the contract.

Private arbitration or public arbitration it does not matter. It is still binding. If you go to arbitration with your neighbor it is private arbitration. Do you consider the result a position or final? The only thing ALPA has in this fight is the method we used. If both sides agreed we could have used AFA or teamster merger policy. But we used ALPA merger policy.

Just because we changed union does not change who the parties of this arbitration were with. Seham tried to fool the jury about that during the trial. They did not buy it. Go to the Nicolau award and read who the parties to the arbitration were with.

In the Matter of the Seniority Integration of
The Pilots of US Airways, Inc.
and
The Pilots of America West Airlines, Inc.

The pilots! That is you and me not ALPA. You and I through our reps agreed to the result of this arbitration. It does not matter if it is private or public. The results are binding on the parties. The pilots.

 

[Metroyet]

If there is a final outcome, why are here arguing about it? Why is the Nic not in use? Why are there court battles going on? Why don't I have any west brothers and sisters flying with me. It's not final by a long shot.

Easy. Because the Company refused to get involved and Doug Parker attempted to take the Cowards way out of this and let the courts decide. Well, because the company hid, 2/3rds of the 9th circuit didn't have enough information to see the forest through the trees and declared this "not ripe".

It will either become "ripe" at some point, or this place will go the way of Pan Am. One of them will happen, it's just a matter of what will happen first.

I don't believe Doug Parker was smart enough to engineer this from the very beginning but he sure as hell helped create this situation. It's not over by a long shot because the legal system in this country literally takes years. That isn't any indication of how solid USAPAs legal arguments are, it's just a fact of life with a broken down system.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Private arbitration or public arbitration it does not matter. It is still binding. If you go to arbitration with your neighbor it is private arbitration. Do you consider the result a position or final? The only thing ALPA has in this fight is the method we used. If both sides agreed we could have used AFA or teamster merger policy. But we used ALPA merger policy.

Just because we changed union does not change who the parties of this arbitration were with. Seham tried to fool the jury about that during the trial. They did not buy it. Go to the Nicolau award and read who the parties to the arbitration were with.




The pilots! That is you and me not ALPA. You and I through our reps agreed to the result of this arbitration. It does not matter if it is private or public. The results are binding on the parties. The pilots.

That's the title of the transition agreement....not the body. Anybody versed in the law will tell you that the title of the statute, legal document, CBA, etc. does not dictate the terms of the agreement. The terms are found in the body of the agreement. For example, a mortgage agreement can be called a prenuptial agreement, but the terms and conditions of what the agreement really is is found in the body.

That's the way it is. A rose by any other name.....

Good luck.

 

[Pi brat]

But in my personal experience it was 100% of the east pilots.


More lies Pi. Or revisionist history, as you guys are so good at.




Yeah, you've proven yourself, so the feeling is quite mutual.

YOUR personal experience! That's right. I would say that was way less than 1%. My personal experience with UA pilots has been that about 90% are whining tools, but I still accept that it's a small sample. We're pilots- a lot of posturing and hot air, but did we ever get to the point of seniority integration discussions?

Your pretty good at the too, it why you had to "restate" you position. Glad we know where each other stands and believe me, I'd rather go work for Walmart before I'd want to work with the likes of you.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Easy. Because the Company refused to get involved and Doug Parker attempted to take the Cowards way out of this and let the courts decide. Well, because the company hid, 2/3rds of the 9th circuit didn't have enough information to see the forest through the trees and declared this "not ripe".

It will either become "ripe" at some point, or this place will go the way of Pan Am. One of them will happen, it's just a matter of what will happen first.

I don't believe Doug Parker was smart enough to engineer this from the very beginning but he sure as hell helped create this situation. It's not over by a long shot because the legal system in this country literally takes years. That isn't any indication of how solid USAPAs legal arguments are, it's just a fact of life with a broken down system.

Sour grapes?

Lamenting still, I see.

Good luck outsider.

 

[Pi brat]

Well, because the company hid, 2/3rds of the 9th circuit didn't have enough information to see the forest through the trees and declared this "not ripe".

This is so funny! You guys poke and make fun when the east calls Nicolau and Wake idiots, but you guys do the same thing when someone says something you don't like. Just goes to show you, the two groups are made up of the same percentages of people.

 

[cleardirect]

That's the title of the transition agreement....not the body. Anybody versed in the law will tell you that the title of the statute, legal document, CBA, etc. does not dictate the terms of the agreement. The terms are found in the body of the agreement. For example, a mortgage agreement can be called a prenuptial agreement, but the terms and conditions of what the agreement really is is found in the body.

That's the way it is. A rose by any other name.....

Good luck.

That is the party block of the arbitration not the T/A. Not the terms the parties. The parties are the pilots. That is who the terms apply to.


The ALPA Arbitration Board
-------------------------------------------------------------x
In the Matter of the Seniority Integration of
The Pilots of US Airways, Inc.
and
The Pilots of America West Airlines, Inc.
-------------------------------------------------------------x

The ALPA Arbitration Board

George Nicolau, Chairman
Captain Stephen Gillen, Pilot Neutral
Captain James P. Brucia, Pilot Neutral


APPEARANCES
For the US Airways Pilots:
Katz & Ranzman, P.C.
By: Daniel M. Katz, Esq.
Jason M. Whiteman. Esq.


For the America West Pilots:
Bredhoff & Kaiser, P.L.L.C.
By: Jeffrey R. Freund, Esq.
Roger Pollack, Esq.
Lisa Powell, Esq.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Private arbitration or public arbitration it does not matter. It is still binding. If you go to arbitration with your neighbor it is private arbitration. Do you consider the result a position or final? The only thing ALPA has in this fight is the method we used. If both sides agreed we could have used AFA or teamster merger policy. But we used ALPA merger policy.

Just because we changed union does not change who the parties of this arbitration were with. Seham tried to fool the jury about that during the trial. They did not buy it. Go to the Nicolau award and read who the parties to the arbitration were with.




The pilots! That is you and me not ALPA. You and I through our reps agreed to the result of this arbitration. It does not matter if it is private or public. The results are binding on the parties. The pilots.

Here we go again. You're wrong. If the majority of the craft or class strikes and the few cross the picket line what obligates the company to honor YOUR seniority then if you're the one on strike? The "final and binding" Inures to the Respective MECs not the pilots. The pilots have a CBA to bind the company to terms and conditions the pilots vote for. If a doesn't adhere to the contract that can be to the companys benefit, unless it's against the company. Then follow orders and grieve it.

Seniority, pay, work conditions, etc. Are only as good as the status quo is being observed. After you can do what you want.

Good luck.