US Pilots Labor Discussion

[A320 Driver]

Easy,

We got walked on for many years and we are tired of the company always getting more than they need. Also the old saying it takes two to tango. Put another way.... why does the company always have to fight the pilots? They aren't just fighting usapa, they get their kicks by screwing us all....it's what they do, it is their unwritten mission statement.


Regards,


Bob

Very well put Bob. The proof is in the number of greivances we are carrying as previously stated on this board. The brass will only settle a grievance if it is non-precedent setting. USAPA is also slow putting together their arguments and will only schedule a few days a month to devote to them. Almost all the others have to go all the way to arbitration. We don't stand a chance.

I went to the meeting in CLT with Dr. Bronner years ago. He characterized managements actions as "nibbling around the edge of your contract". They've done it for years and every time we catch them, we end up just adding to the tally, but little changes.

Driver B)

 

[Barrister]

My nature is to do the same. 30 years of comraderie among fellow pilots is hard to erase, but USAPA has done a better job of that than anything else in that same time period. I see a crew wearing those stupid yellow lanyards and know that I helped pay for them and that they unfairly tar me by association (under penalty of losing my job), and the rage and pity overshadow my tendency to be friendly. I'll do what I can to suppress that and be cordial, when I would prefer to be genuinely friendly.

While I have not been consumed to the point of hating the individuals, I do hate what USAPA's divisive tactics have done to my perspective and my career satisfaction. As professional pilots we endure the hardships of pursuing a career at a major airline and then encounter a person or group that robs you of the joy of that accomplishment. The Eastern pilots encountered that with Lorenzo and we encounter that with USAPA. The pilots at Eastern chose to strike in sympathy with the IAM rather than act as accomplices to their own demise. Due to agency shop provisions, we are not permitted to "strike" our union, as bizarre as that concept sounds.

While many will try to draw the same connection with their experience and ALPA, it isn't entirely the same. Years of refusal to adapt to a changing industry and poor management decisions brought about the death sentence to the east pilot's pensions and LOA93- ALPA merely picked the method of execution.

Lorenzo used the opportunity of deregulation to decimate the careers of the Eastern pilots. Bradford and subsequently Cleary are exploiting the opportunity afforded them by their majority advantage to disadvantage the west pilots and transfer onto them the effects of east career stagnation.

I won't bore you with parallels between the Nazi party and USAPA other than to say that the same cult of personality and perpetuation of lies that helped transform otherwise rational Germans into complicit murderers, is helping transform the esprit de corps of fellow pilots into an unnecessary and divisive civil war with little hope of successful reconstruction.

That's why I hope and work for USAPA's replacement. Not for how it changed my union, but for how it's changing me.

So Cleary is Hitler and we are all Heil Hitlering him.......its about an arbitrator
using our FINANCIAL position to penalize 75 % of U pilots and placing a new hire
senior to a 17 year guy you MORON....nothing more nothing less. It won't matter
in 15-20 years. It ain't about you except you are the beneficiary of a totally inept
arbitration. He could have made both sides mad as hell but chose the lazy way out.
His award will go down in history as how not to do it.

NICDOA
NPJB

 

[cleardirect]

So Cleary is Hitler and we are all Heil Hitlering him.......its about an arbitrator
using our FINANCIAL position to penalize 75 % of U pilots and placing a new hire
senior to a 17 year guy you MORON....nothing more nothing less. It won't matter
in 15-20 years. It ain't about you except you are the beneficiary of a totally inept
arbitration. He could have made both sides mad as hell but chose the lazy way out.
His award will go down in history as how not to do it.

NICDOA
NPJB

What is the reaction going to be when another arbitrator does not delivery your wish? Are east pilots going to be even madder than hell?

Who will you guys consider more inept Kasher or Nicolau? Here is a thought, how about point to the people that run the arbitrations not the guys making the decision. Are we going to have the same 75% of U pilot angry again? Oh no!

 

[crazystnic]

Bob,

I agree with you 100% on this subject. I treat East jumpseaters with the same courtesy and say hello or nod to pilots I make eye contact, East, West or brand X. I have friends who are current and former East pilots.

I can keep my disagreements here and still do my job.

Happy Memorial Day to you as well, Bob.

*********************
maybe we could get something done with cactus 1 on the other side!

LUVN and Clear not so much!

 

[CactusPilot1]

maybe we could get something done with cactus 1 on the other side!
LUVN and Clear not so much!

Thank you for recognizing that I am motivated by frustration with a process and not by hatred.

I think LUVN and Clear probably have similar feelings.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Just look at their bonus contract. It is designed to give management huge bounses for good operational numbers...but more importantly, "TO KEEP THE OPERATING COSTS DOWN!"

As long as we keep fighting each other, the company has the advantage of operating as if there is no union at all.

breeze

So you would prefer Management to run the airline in such a way that it is unreliable, inefficient, and with operating costs higher than revenue could ever cover just so they miss their bonuses? Isn't that the formula US Airways used prior to 9/27/2005? Did that strategy result in better wages, work rules, and pension plans or did those areas suffer because of a poorly mismanaged airline? Management has already offered to vastly improve the east pilots' compensation and would likely offer many improvements in work rules if USAPA would stop rejecting NIC/section 22.

Your last sentence is correct though. There is no unity within USAPA and without unity there really is no advantage to having a "union" at all. The east pilots are the ones responsible for is situation and they use classic counter-transference to place the blame for their woes on west pilots and on Management. Until you can be honest with yourselves as to the root cause of this problem, it will never change. Will the east pilots blame Kasher and Silver just like they blamed Nicolau and Wake if these matters don't go their way, or will they finally realize they have been deceiving themselves for all of these years?

 

[end_of_alpa]

Thank you for recognizing that I am motivated by frustration with a process and not by hatred.

I think LUVN and Clear probably have similar feelings.

It would then be helpful if derogatory comments such as "scab" or "afo" be left out of the discussion. In fact I have just read the PHX bpr response to the PHX crew news for pilots. It is unfortunate to see the frustration there, however, there IS a process the company must adhere to as well. I empathize with all the West pilots regarding the training pay reimbursement. However, when Mitch, John and the other guy decided not to participate and testify in the arbitration that only they can testify to regarding intent it just goes to show that ranting and raving about how the process is unfair starts to fall on deaf ears. The company wants their money back and they are not about to set a precedent by letting one group or another "have a loan" on the companies behalf. It's that simple.

The West pilots and their BPR reps voice the lament of unfairness, isolation and therefore frustration. while I understand these "emotions", unfortunately the ONLY right thing the company can do is follow the RLA and negotiate with USAPA. That is the law. We know you hate Cleary, Parrella, "Gang of Eight (BPR). However, you will only continue to become increasingly isolated and alone until you quit blaming __________ (company, USAPA, east Pilots, ALPA, etc.) and start thinking about your future.

The new catch phrase for the day seems to be "collusion" on the the West lips. There is a HUGE difference between that and labor negotiations. It will be quite a reach to prove collusion in the context of labor negotiations.

You'll have better luck prevailing in DFR deux.

Good luck.

 

[3dtv]

So you would prefer Management to run the airline in such a way that it is unreliable, inefficient, and with operating costs higher than revenue could ever cover just so they miss their bonuses? Isn't that the formula US Airways used prior to 9/27/2005? Did that strategy result in better wages, work rules, and pension plans or did those areas suffer because of a poorly mismanaged airline? Management has already offered to vastly improve the east pilots' compensation and would likely offer many improvements in work rules if USAPA would stop rejecting NIC/section 22.

Your last sentence is correct though. There is no unity within USAPA and without unity there really is no advantage to having a "union" at all. The east pilots are the ones responsible for is situation and they use classic counter-transference to place the blame for their woes on west pilots and on Management. Until you can be honest with yourselves as to the root cause of this problem, it will never change. Will the east pilots blame Kasher and Silver just like they blamed Nicolau and Wake if these matters don't go their way, or will they finally realize they have been deceiving themselves for all of these years?

 

[end_of_alpa]

So you would prefer Management to run the airline in such a way that it is unreliable, inefficient, and with operating costs higher than revenue could ever cover just so they miss their bonuses? Isn't that the formula US Airways used prior to 9/27/2005? Did that strategy result in better wages, work rules, and pension plans or did those areas suffer because of a poorly mismanaged airline? Management has already offered to vastly improve the east pilots' compensation and would likely offer many improvements in work rules if USAPA would stop rejecting NIC/section 22.

Your last sentence is correct though. There is no unity within USAPA and without unity there really is no advantage to having a "union" at all. The east pilots are the ones responsible for is situation and they use classic counter-transference to place the blame for their woes on west pilots and on Management. Until you can be honest with yourselves as to the root cause of this problem, it will never change. Will the east pilots blame Kasher and Silver just like they blamed Nicolau and Wake if these matters don't go their way, or will they finally realize they have been deceiving themselves for all of these years?

I do not get where you come up with the part where the company will "vastly" improve the compensation and many other improvements in work rules if you mean the "Kirby proposal". Your BPR reps just stated in the latest domicile report that "Kirby" was not enough.

USAPA and "the east pilots" are not blaming anyone like you think. You value east pilots less than we do. It's that simple. I just got back from Madrid and I am going BACK to Captain on the Airbus in July. Europe is a great source of revenue for us and it looks like South America is adding up to be the same. New hires will be seeing a lot more of this action soon enough. We are now starting to see upward moving again. I have been flying with alot of over 60 guys and they will be leaving soon enough. As the attrition train leaves the station new hires coming on the line mixed with West pilot furloughs on the east. As Parker said, there are more airplanes than pilots east of the Mississippi then west. Separate operations serve to accelerate their movement upward.

Question: as those pilots get off probation and take advantage of that movement do you believe they will vote in a JCBA that impedes their upward movement if THEY become a large enough group to reckon with? Senior international F/O, maybe junior Captain under certain conditions, or overall junior F/O? If you were them what vote would you take?


We are honest with ourselves: WEST PILOTS VALUE EAST PILOTS LESS. That is the situation in six words. Until YOU can be honest with yourselves and realize reality you will continue to isolate yourselves in PHX and the company will continue to run roughshod over YOUR CBA. PHX crew news. Need I say more?

 

[CallawayGolf]

I do not get where you come up with the part where the company will "vastly" improve the compensation and many other improvements in work rules if you mean the "Kirby proposal". Your BPR reps just stated in the latest domicile report that "Kirby" was not enough.

USAPA and "the east pilots" are not blaming anyone like you think. You value east pilots less than we do. It's that simple. I just got back from Madrid and I am going BACK to Captain on the Airbus in July. Europe is a great source of revenue for us and it looks like South America is adding up to be the same. New hires will be seeing a lot more of this action soon enough. We are now starting to see upward moving again. I have been flying with alot of over 60 guys and they will be leaving soon enough. As the attrition train leaves the station new hires coming on the line mixed with West pilot furloughs on the east. As Parker said, there are more airplanes than pilots east of the Mississippi then west. Separate operations serve to accelerate their movement upward.

Question: as those pilots get off probation and take advantage of that movement do you believe they will vote in a JCBA that impedes their upward movement if THEY become a large enough group to reckon with? Senior international F/O, maybe junior Captain under certain conditions, or overall junior F/O? If you were them what vote would you take?


We are honest with ourselves: WEST PILOTS VALUE EAST PILOTS LESS. That is the situation in six words. Until YOU can be honest with yourselves and realize reality you will continue to isolate yourselves in PHX and the company will continue to run roughshod over YOUR CBA. PHX crew news. Need I say more?

Well certainly "vast" is a subjective term so let me just say that I think that bringing east NB pilots up to the west scale plus 3% is a sizable improvement in compensation for a majority of east pilots. I'm not talking about the Kirby proposal's impact on the west pay scale and I too wouldn't classify that as a vast improvement.

I have no way of knowing what particular group of east pilots may or may not do. However, I can not personally understand why anyone would choose to stay on LOA93 and not objectively weigh their chances of overturning binding arbitration in favor of having no negotiating leverage with Management. This failed strategy will unquestionably result inEast pilots being the lowest-paid mainline pilots among the majors. All this because a high-risk, low reward strategy is the best USAPA can offer. If USAPA's leaders are stupid enough to give Management all the power and leverage with regards to the pilots, then I would classify Management as stupid if they didn't use that leverage to it's maximum value for as long as USAPA continues on this path of self destruction. USAPA's delusions and narcissism is the problem, not Management and not the west pilots. Until that is corrected, all US pilots will suffer, but none more so than the east.

 

[nevergiveup]

Well certainly "vast" is a subjective term so let me just say that I think that bringing east NB pilots up to the west scale plus 3% is a sizable improvement in compensation for a majority of east pilots. I'm not talking about the Kirby proposal's impact on the west pay scale and I too wouldn't classify that as a vast improvement.

I have no way of knowing what particular group of east pilots may or may not do. However, I can not personally understand why anyone would choose to stay on LOA93 and not objectively weigh their chances of overturning binding arbitration in favor of having no negotiating leverage with Management. This failed strategy will unquestionably result inEast pilots being the lowest-paid mainline pilots among the majors. All this because a high-risk, low reward strategy is the best USAPA can offer. If USAPA's leaders are stupid enough to give Management all the power and leverage with regards to the pilots, then I would classify Management as stupid if they didn't use that leverage to it's maximum value for as long as USAPA continues on this path of self destruction. USAPA's delusions and narcissism is the problem, not Management and not the west pilots. Until that is corrected, all US pilots will suffer, but none more so than the east.

LOA 93 is the reason you are employed today!

 

[nycbusdriver]

I'll answer the question, NYC.

I don't hold hostages on the jumpseat. They are free to speak as they wish above 10K. From what I have heard they are not too impressed with airways pilots trying cheat binding arbitration. The airline pilots I have talked with feel sorry that we got stuck with such a dysfunctional group of airways pilots.

Thanks for making my point.

The statement cannot be proved. All you have is anecdotes. And we have ours, too. Proves NOTHING.

 

[end_of_alpa]

Well certainly "vast" is a subjective term so let me just say that I think that bringing east NB pilots up to the west scale plus 3% is a sizable improvement in compensation for a majority of east pilots. I'm not talking about the Kirby proposal's impact on the west pay scale and I too wouldn't classify that as a vast improvement.

I have no way of knowing what particular group of east pilots may or may not do. However, I can not personally understand why anyone would choose to stay on LOA93 and not objectively weigh their chances of overturning binding arbitration in favor of having no negotiating leverage with Management. This failed strategy will unquestionably result inEast pilots being the lowest-paid mainline pilots among the majors. All this because a high-risk, low reward strategy is the best USAPA can offer. If USAPA's leaders are stupid enough to give Management all the power and leverage with regards to the pilots, then I would classify Management as stupid if they didn't use that leverage to it's maximum value for as long as USAPA continues on this path of self destruction. USAPA's delusions and narcissism is the problem, not Management and not the west pilots. Until that is corrected, all US pilots will suffer, but none more so than the east.

We HAVE objectively weighed our chances. 100% to be exact. There IS no "chances". The best you'll get is DOH with conditions and restrictions. PERIOD.

You cannot have what DIDN'T get voted for. If that were otherwise, we wouldn't have court cases. We'd have a seniority list NOW and in operations.

In FACT Parker even said that at the PHX crew news...we are where we are BECAUSE we have NO JCBA! They cannot impose ANY CBA without a JCBA. What's preventing it? Ultimately, a ratification vote in the end.

The overwhelming majority of pilots on the East KNOW they have a DUTY AND OBLIGATION to honor the commitments made under OUR CBA over that of the transition agreement. Those NO LONGER FURLOUGHED EAST pilots had then and now have every right to voice and VOTE their OWN SELF INTEREST when it comes to furlough and recall regardless of the good standing provisions of the CBA. Since they are all back on the property their vote has full force and effert because they are now back employed.

In fact, what are the real new hire pilots to expect if and when another merger comes about to short shrift them of THEIR years of service/DOH? Will THEY be complicite to accept that they are "children of a lessor god" (this meaning YOU AND ME) or will they revolt? You keep trying to explain to us why WE are worth less then you. Try explaining that to the new hires. DOH means nothing to them if it means nothing to you. Let's see if the furloughed United pilots are willing to roll over and take it where the sun doesn't shine OR they decide to SUE under LMRDA for their rights for a voice AND a vote.

ALPA unfortunately forgot THOSE provisions under LMRDA and I, along with the overwhelming majority of East pilots legally support and have a duty to support those PREVIOUSLY negotiated provisions of the East CBA OVER a legally flawed position that ALPA provided. A provision, mind you, that had an even LESS chance of acceptance under ALPA merger policy with the separate ratification voting provisions then we have now. Even the Ninth Circuit recognized that.

The ONLY "failed" strategy I observe now is the PHX domiciled pilots lamenting to Doug that somehow he should DISCIPLINE his "errant children" in the other domicles for "bad behavior".

When I watch the PHX crew news I keep asking the real question:

"Who's YOU'RE daddy NOW?" (Hint: not USAPA, that's for sure.)

 

[end_of_alpa]

Thanks for making my point.

The statement cannot be proved. All you have is anecdotes. And we have ours, too. Proves NOTHING.

Well said.

 

[Metroyet]

We HAVE objectively weighed our chances. 100% to be exact. There IS no "chances". The best you'll get is DOH with conditions and restrictions. PERIOD!

Sure. You guys make it ripe, and let's see how fast a permanent injunction gets slapped on your fake union. There is nothing in the history of this mess that would suggest that WON'T happen. PERIOD!