US Pilots Labor Discussion

[mrbreeze]

Agreed, we are both stuck, East and West. It did not have to be that way but one side decided to walk away and form an exclusive club. That is, to exclude a third of the pilot group from true representation. Instead, our bargaining agent may well be in bed with the company to hammer dues paying pilots.

I guess the courts will have to figure a way out of out this three-way mess.

Cactus,

When the East pilots walked away it had more to do with turning our backs on ALPA than anything. We had been so screwed over by ALPA National that we were way beyond throwing them off the property. ALPA was being run by mostly United and Delta reps whose thoughts were that if USAir would just go away, their airlines would be ok. (reduction in capacity) I had quit paying ALPA dues 9 months before the NIC even came out, due mostly to the lack of support from ALPA Ntl, and the loss of our pension. Well, we surprised the industry by giving up about $8 billion in pay and benefits....which is a big item that we brought to the table in the merger....probably the only reason AWA was interested. AWA management also bet on the fact that they could screw us on the expiration date of LOA 93. Time will tell.

As far as the West pilots feeling like they are not represented, I can see that. But I find it hard to believe that Doug and Mike have phone conversations, trying to figure out how to screw you guys out West......I think they have a mutual hatred for each other. The mistrust that you feel for USAPA is probably equivilant to the mistrust that we feel about just accepting the NIC to get a better contract.

The answer to all this quagmire? Either we find a way to negotiate, both sides find ways to pressure Doug, or wait for the courts to decide.....which is what management loves.

breeze

 

[luvn737s]

So you're stuck with us....and btw, we are stuck with you guys...Now what?

1. Hold a representation vote to replace USAPA
2. Bipartisan Constitutional Convention to write a constitution that represents ALL US pilots interests
3. The replacement union puts out a statement that says although the east outnumbers the west, in the interest of unity, the Nicolau list will be the only list profferd to the company. The strategy of marginalizing 1/3 of the pilots by substituting tyranny of the majority over the rule of law is a dead end and cannot be sustained.
4. A new NAC with equal representation of east and west picks up where the ALPA negotiations left off. Company sees overwhelming positive support to new union and begins negotiating in earnest. A T/A is presented for ratification within 6 months- 1 year.
5. Union gives full support to T/A inclusive of Nic and explains the possible (but by no means certain) upsides and downsides to the Nic list.
6. Pilots feel burden of civil war lifted from their shoulders and real bipartisan participation and overwhelmingly pass the new contract which contains some improvements, but is of a short duration, allowing further progress to begin almost immediately on the next contract.

Or you can sit in your hot airplane or at the Starbucks when you're in PHX and not dare make eye contact for the next 5-10 years.

 

[mrbreeze]

1. Hold a representation vote to replace USAPA
2. Bipartisan Constitutional Convention to write a constitution that represents ALL US pilots interests
3. The replacement union puts out a statement that says although the east outnumbers the west, in the interest of unity, the Nicolau list will be the only list profferd to the company. The strategy of marginalizing 1/3 of the pilots by substituting tyranny of the majority over the rule of law is a dead end and cannot be sustained.
4. A new NAC with equal representation of east and west picks up where the ALPA negotiations left off. Company sees overwhelming positive support to new union and begins negotiating in earnest. A T/A is presented for ratification within 6 months- 1 year.
5. Union gives full support to T/A inclusive of Nic and explains the possible (but by no means certain) upsides and downsides to the Nic list.
6. Pilots feel burden of civil war lifted from their shoulders and real bipartisan participation and overwhelmingly pass the new contract which contains some improvements, but is of a short duration, allowing further progress to begin almost immediately on the next contract.

Or you can sit in your hot airplane or at the Starbucks when you're in PHX and not dare make eye contact for the next 5-10 years.

Numbers 3 and 5 are deal breakers.....ur not coming off of your position at all.
I like number 6 though.

 

[767one]

1. Hold a representation vote to replace USAPA
2. Bipartisan Constitutional Convention to write a constitution that represents ALL US pilots interests
3. The replacement union puts out a statement that says although the east outnumbers the west, in the interest of unity, the Nicolau list will be the only list profferd to the company. The strategy of marginalizing 1/3 of the pilots by substituting tyranny of the majority over the rule of law is a dead end and cannot be sustained.
4. A new NAC with equal representation of east and west picks up where the ALPA negotiations left off. Company sees overwhelming positive support to new union and begins negotiating in earnest. A T/A is presented for ratification within 6 months- 1 year.
5. Union gives full support to T/A inclusive of Nic and explains the possible (but by no means certain) upsides and downsides to the Nic list.
6. Pilots feel burden of civil war lifted from their shoulders and real bipartisan participation and overwhelmingly pass the new contract which contains some improvements, but is of a short duration, allowing further progress to begin almost immediately on the next contract.

Or you can sit in your hot airplane or at the Starbucks when you're in PHX and not dare make eye contact for the next 5-10 years.

Luvn,

Don't do Starbucks and don't get to PHX much but I always say hi to every pilot west or east that I see. Several times I had a trip with a deadhead on west metal and always made it a point to thank the crew for the ride. Eye contact is not a problem. I don't sit in hot airplanes because if it is hot I start the apu and if the apu doesn't keep it cool we all get off the aiplane until it is cool.


Regards,


Bob

 

[767one]

Luvn,

I won't get an answere to my question, or I should say I certainly won't get the correct answere to my question, not from a usapa supporter.

I intended the question for any east posters, but perhaps answeres from West supporters might enlighten them. So, I want to make it clear that the question is for anybody to answere, not just MrBreeze.


Why does usapa have to "fight" the company?

Easy,

We got walked on for many years and we are tired of the company always getting more than they need. Also the old saying it takes two to tango. Put another way.... why does the company always have to fight the pilots? They aren't just fighting usapa, they get their kicks by screwing us all....it's what they do, it is their unwritten mission statement.


Regards,


Bob

 

[767one]

Hi Bob,

Even back on the ALPA boards you have been first, a gentleman, and second, a professional, always in tune with the whole pilot group's needs.

If I miss your retirement....long, sunny days and restful nights to you sir!

breeze

Breeze,

Thanks for the kind words.

Enjoy your memorial day,

Bob

 

[No Land Green]

This is a good read. Just happened to stumble across it. I'm not sure if it has been posted here before, I apologize in advance if it has. And NO, the Nic award is not part of this web page, so it must all be bunk. Happy Memorial Day Weekend fellow Vet's!!!



http://www.psa-history.org/awa/index.html

 

[CactusPilot1]

Luvn,

Don't do Starbucks and don't get to PHX much but I always say hi to every pilot west or east that I see. Several times I had a trip with a deadhead on west metal and always made it a point to thank the crew for the ride. Eye contact is not a problem. I don't sit in hot airplanes because if it is hot I start the apu and if the apu doesn't keep it cool we all get off the aiplane until it is cool.


Regards,


Bob

Bob,

I agree with you 100% on this subject. I treat East jumpseaters with the same courtesy and say hello or nod to pilots I make eye contact, East, West or brand X. I have friends who are current and former East pilots.

I can keep my disagreements here and still do my job.

Happy Memorial Day to you as well, Bob.

 

[CactusPilot1]

Cactus,

When the East pilots walked away it had more to do with turning our backs on ALPA than anything. We had been so screwed over by ALPA National that we were way beyond throwing them off the property. ALPA was being run by mostly United and Delta reps whose thoughts were that if USAir would just go away, their airlines would be ok. (reduction in capacity) I had quit paying ALPA dues 9 months before the NIC even came out, due mostly to the lack of support from ALPA Ntl, and the loss of our pension. Well, we surprised the industry by giving up about $8 billion in pay and benefits....which is a big item that we brought to the table in the merger....probably the only reason AWA was interested. AWA management also bet on the fact that they could screw us on the expiration date of LOA 93. Time will tell.

As far as the West pilots feeling like they are not represented, I can see that. But I find it hard to believe that Doug and Mike have phone conversations, trying to figure out how to screw you guys out West......I think they have a mutual hatred for each other. The mistrust that you feel for USAPA is probably equivilant to the mistrust that we feel about just accepting the NIC to get a better contract.

The answer to all this quagmire? Either we find a way to negotiate, both sides find ways to pressure Doug, or wait for the courts to decide.....which is what management loves.

breeze

Thanks for the constructive reply, MrB. I got a chuckle when you called a previous poster a 'meathead". I pictured you as Archie Bunker sitting there in the easy chair. It gave me a laugh.

I realize you had issues with ALPA, I was not a big fan myself, especially with that do-nothing, Prater. USAPA is nothing like an in-house union such as APA or SWAPA. It is run by meatheads.
I don't really care if the name is USAPA, I can live with that if it represented my interests as well. It does not. Instead, it sues my fellow pilots and picks and chooses which arbitration is binding. That mocks the intent of the process in general.

I know you guys have problem with Leonidas. The pilots of American and SW did not have to form a defense alliance against their unions. We have to because we would get steamroled by the tyranny of the majority. We fund it and have to pay union dues as well. I match or exceed the dues payments. Voluntarily, I will add, my choice. I'll do whatever iit takes to defend my interests if the assocaition will not.

USAPA had a chance to be a real union, instead people stand by and let the meatheads drive the steamroller in circles.

 

[luvn737s]

Numbers 3 and 5 are deal breakers.....ur not coming off of your position at all.
I like number 6 though.

Nicolau isn't "OUR" position, it's the one that resulted from an agreement between the two pilot groups (regardless of who was representing them). Don't let your pride be the real deal breaker.

 

[crazystnic]

Nicolau isn't "OUR" position, it's the one that resulted from an agreement between the two pilot groups (regardless of who was representing them). Don't let your pride be the real deal breaker.

three is a deal breaker... we wouldn't be here if we accepted the NIC!

You sound like a republican.. You want to end Medicare and you don't want to raise taxes on anyone making over 250K but other than that everything is on the table for raising the debt ceiling

 

[luvn737s]

Luvn,

Don't do Starbucks and don't get to PHX much but I always say hi to every pilot west or east that I see.
Bob

My nature is to do the same. 30 years of comraderie among fellow pilots is hard to erase, but USAPA has done a better job of that than anything else in that same time period. I see a crew wearing those stupid yellow lanyards and know that I helped pay for them and that they unfairly tar me by association (under penalty of losing my job), and the rage and pity overshadow my tendency to be friendly. I'll do what I can to suppress that and be cordial, when I would prefer to be genuinely friendly.

While I have not been consumed to the point of hating the individuals, I do hate what USAPA's divisive tactics have done to my perspective and my career satisfaction. As professional pilots we endure the hardships of pursuing a career at a major airline and then encounter a person or group that robs you of the joy of that accomplishment. The Eastern pilots encountered that with Lorenzo and we encounter that with USAPA. The pilots at Eastern chose to strike in sympathy with the IAM rather than act as accomplices to their own demise. Due to agency shop provisions, we are not permitted to "strike" our union, as bizarre as that concept sounds.

While many will try to draw the same connection with their experience and ALPA, it isn't entirely the same. Years of refusal to adapt to a changing industry and poor management decisions brought about the death sentence to the east pilot's pensions and LOA93- ALPA merely picked the method of execution.

Lorenzo used the opportunity of deregulation to decimate the careers of the Eastern pilots. Bradford and subsequently Cleary are exploiting the opportunity afforded them by their majority advantage to disadvantage the west pilots and transfer onto them the effects of east career stagnation.

I won't bore you with parallels between the Nazi party and USAPA other than to say that the same cult of personality and perpetuation of lies that helped transform otherwise rational Germans into complicit murderers, is helping transform the esprit de corps of fellow pilots into an unnecessary and divisive civil war with little hope of successful reconstruction.

That's why I hope and work for USAPA's replacement. Not for how it changed my union, but for how it's changing me.

 

[CactusPilot1]

My nature is to do the same. 30 years of comraderie among fellow pilots is hard to erase, but USAPA has done a better job of that than anything else in that same time period. I see a crew wearing those stupid yellow lanyards and know that I helped pay for them and that they unfairly tar me by association (under penalty of losing my job), and the rage and pity overshadow my tendency to be friendly. I'll do what I can to suppress that and be cordial, when I would prefer to be genuinely friendly.

While I have not been consumed to the point of hating the individuals, I do hate what USAPA's divisive tactics have done to my perspective and my career satisfaction. As professional pilots we endure the hardships of pursuing a career at a major airline and then encounter a person or group that robs you of the joy of that accomplishment. The Eastern pilots encountered that with Lorenzo and we encounter that with USAPA.

Lorenzo used the opportunity of deregulation to decimate the careers of the Eastern pilots. Bradford and subsequently Cleary are exploiting the opportunity afforded them by their majority advantage to disadvantage the west pilots and transfer onto them the effects of east career stagnation.

I won't bore you with parallels between the Nazi party and USAPA other than to say that the same cult of personality and perpetuation of lies that helped transform otherwise rational Germans into complicit murderers, is helping transform the esprit de corps of fellow pilots into an unnecessary and divisive civil war with little hope of successful reconstruction.

That's why I hope and work for USAPA's replacement. Not for how it changed my union, but for how it's changing me.

Very well written and major points noted above. That pretty much spells out my feelings as well about our situation.

 

[No Land Green]

Bradford and subsequently Cleary are exploiting the opportunity afforded them by their majority advantage to disadvantage the west pilots and transfer onto them the effects of east career stagnation.

I have to laugh every time I see a West Pilot mention the word "stagnation".................You need the East to end your "stagnation". After reading the history of AWA, I can see the ups and downs AWA had, unlike the picture many paint here. "stagnation" is a part of this industry. You will not find many on the East that will sympathize with West "stagnation", especially when you need to migrate East to end that "stagnation".

 

[aquagreen73s]

My nature is to do the same. 30 years of comraderie among fellow pilots is hard to erase, but USAPA has done a better job of that than anything else in that same time period. I see a crew wearing those stupid yellow lanyards and know that I helped pay for them and that they unfairly tar me by association (under penalty of losing my job), and the rage and pity overshadow my tendency to be friendly. I'll do what I can to suppress that and be cordial, when I would prefer to be genuinely friendly.

While I have not been consumed to the point of hating the individuals, I do hate what USAPA's divisive tactics have done to my perspective and my career satisfaction. As professional pilots we endure the hardships of pursuing a career at a major airline and then encounter a person or group that robs you of the joy of that accomplishment. The Eastern pilots encountered that with Lorenzo and we encounter that with USAPA. The pilots at Eastern chose to strike in sympathy with the IAM rather than act as accomplices to their own demise. Due to agency shop provisions, we are not permitted to "strike" our union, as bizarre as that concept sounds.

While many will try to draw the same connection with their experience and ALPA, it isn't entirely the same. Years of refusal to adapt to a changing industry and poor management decisions brought about the death sentence to the east pilot's pensions and LOA93- ALPA merely picked the method of execution.

Lorenzo used the opportunity of deregulation to decimate the careers of the Eastern pilots. Bradford and subsequently Cleary are exploiting the opportunity afforded them by their majority advantage to disadvantage the west pilots and transfer onto them the effects of east career stagnation.

I won't bore you with parallels between the Nazi party and USAPA other than to say that the same cult of personality and perpetuation of lies that helped transform otherwise rational Germans into complicit murderers, is helping transform the esprit de corps of fellow pilots into an unnecessary and divisive civil war with little hope of successful reconstruction.

That's why I hope and work for USAPA's replacement. Not for how it changed my union, but for how it's changing me.

Many processes in life (if not all) are irreversible. Once out, toothpaste won't find its way back into the tube.

Very well said luvn.