US Pilots Labor Discussion 9/9- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[767jetz]

Just wondered if any of the USAPA talking heads can give an accurate number on dollars spent at $$M&P law firm thus far.

That would be a great question to ask Cleary. I have a feeling this will not bode well for him and the recall movement. What I find interesting is that 3 or 4 of the most active USAPA talking heads on this forum have been completely silent since augreen73s posted this:

This just in from Judge Silver

Nothing but crickets.

It seems like when there is any news whatsoever that shows USAPA in a poor light, that can't be spun into anything heroic, all the chatter and hysteria dies down. Probably because there are no marching orders or official word from above on how to spin it. IMO it reflects a lack of accountability by USAPA for any of their actions.

 

[nic4us]

It seems like when there is any news whatsoever that shows USAPA in a poor light, that can't be spun into anything heroic, all the chatter and hysteria dies down. Probably because there are no marching orders or official word from above on how to spin it. IMO it reflects a lack of accountability by USAPA for any of their actions.

Here is the spin.

usapa and SSM&P have succesfully delayed negotiations by another 2 weeks. In doing so we forced a response from AOL attornies, and maybe cost them more money (our only hope of winning is if we can out spend the West),and at the same time diverted your dues dollars to Lee. We have no legitimate union objective that would allow us to steal the West pilots seniority rights, therefore we will continue on our campaign of delay, while blaming it on the company, (we know our followeres are stupid enough to believe us, hey they voted us in after all those laughable campaign promises we made about reneging on binding arbitration and such- what suckers).

Our LOA93 grievence is going great, we almost did not screw up the filings with Kasher, but upon further reflection we now feel we have sufficiently screwed that up also. So expect more delay to be forthcoming.

We are working on a way to delay the recall of the President. Don't worry, we will figure a way to further fail the West in that pesky DFR thingy. We are working on our plan for delay.

You may have seen a letter circulating from CEO Parker, that implies President Cleary has failed to accomplish even the most basic of his duties toward the pilot group. Don't believe it, President Cleary is doing a bang up job ignoring the company, the West pilots, the court system. A more detailed explanation is currently being written by your domicile reps, Phoenix can expect its upadate after the communications committee has had the time to censor their reps.

 

[Run Like Hell]

This just in from Judge Silver


"On September 10, 2010, the Court granted Defendant USAPA permission to file a brief of no more than twenty-five pages in support of its motion to dismiss. (Doc. 42). On September 14, 2010, USAPA filed a thirty-eight page motion. (Doc. 43). Inexplicably, USAPA interpreted the Court’s order as allowing a thirty-eight page motion, provided USAPA used different numbering systems for the two sections of the motion. Page limits cannot be manipulated so easily. USAPA must file a motion of no more than twenty-five pages. The twenty-five pages is inclusive of any pages devoted to the background facts.

Accordingly, IT IS ORDERED the Motion to Strike (Doc. 44) is GRANTED. The Memorandum
(Doc. 43) is STRICKEN.

IT IS FURTHER ORDERED USAPA shall file a motion of no more than twenty-five pages no later than September 21, 2010.

Roslyn O. Silver
United States District Judge
DATED this 17th day of September, 2010.

Just another example of "You can't fix stupid"

These USAPA guys clearly think the rules don't apply to them, this is just more evidence.

We're paying dues for this?


RECALL CLEARY NOW!!

 

[Phoenix]

...

You may have seen a letter circulating from CEO Parker, that implies President Cleary has failed to accomplish even the most basic of his duties toward the pilot group...

No, but Feisal Abdul Rauf assures everyone that he has good will toward that 70% of Americans that oppose his plan to build a mosque at ground zero. You should read everything he writes and believe it is unbiased and accurate.

Maybe you could also get a letter from Wake and Goat Shoap for our reading pleasure and admonition.

 

[Freebird]

Here is the spin.

usapa and SSM&P have succesfully delayed negotiations by another 2 weeks. In doing so we forced a response from AOL attornies, and maybe cost them more money (our only hope of winning is if we can out spend the West),and at the same time diverted your dues dollars to Lee. We have no legitimate union objective that would allow us to steal the West pilots seniority rights, therefore we will continue on our campaign of delay, while blaming it on the company, (we know our followeres are stupid enough to believe us, hey they voted us in after all those laughable campaign promises we made about reneging on binding arbitration and such- what suckers).

Our LOA93 grievence is going great, we almost did not screw up the filings with Kasher, but upon further reflection we now feel we have sufficiently screwed that up also. So expect more delay to be forthcoming.

We are working on a way to delay the recall of the President. Don't worry, we will figure a way to further fail the West in that pesky DFR thingy. We are working on our plan for delay.

You may have seen a letter circulating from CEO Parker, that implies President Cleary has failed to accomplish even the most basic of his duties toward the pilot group. Don't believe it, President Cleary is doing a bang up job ignoring the company, the West pilots, the court system. A more detailed explanation is currently being written by your domicile reps, Phoenix can expect its upadate after the communications committee has had the time to censor their reps.

 

[Freebird]

That would be a great question to ask Cleary. I have a feeling this will not bode well for him and the recall movement. What I find interesting is that 3 or 4 of the most active USAPA talking heads on this forum have been completely silent since augreen73s posted this:



Nothing but crickets.

It seems like when there is any news whatsoever that shows USAPA in a poor light, that can't be spun into anything heroic, all the chatter and hysteria dies down. Probably because there are no marching orders or official word from above on how to spin it. IMO it reflects a lack of accountability by USAPA for any of their actions.

Cockroaches and Cowardly Leadership hide when the light is cast upon them.


Usapa = Circumnavigating Integrity since 2008. And nothing to show for it.

 

[flybynite]

Have you guys/gals gotten around to reading the FAA's new rest proposal yet?

I know it's along document and somewhat convoluted but I'm sure you can follow it. <_<

You do realize this thing is in a 60 day comment period.....wakey..wakey!!

I just flew with a couple of guys that were so clueless it makes my head spin.

This is your working environment and I'm not hearing a peep out of ya'll. Why is that??!!
<_<

 

[cynic]

Have you guys/gals gotten around to reading the FAA's new rest proposal yet?

I know it's along document and somewhat convoluted but I'm sure you can follow it. <_<

You do realize this thing is in a 60 day comment period.....wakey..wakey!!

I just flew with a couple of guys that were so clueless it makes my head spin.

This is your working environment and I'm not hearing a peep out of ya'll. Why is that??!!
<_<

It's an improvement for the most part, but there are some loopholes that can't afford to be watered down any more. We all know it isn't going to get any more stringent, it's just a question of how much they're willing to back down when the airlines complain.

 

[Phoenix]

The Coalition of Airline Pilots Associations (CAPA) which represents over 28,000 commercial passenger and cargo pilots is concerned that portions of the Noticed of Proposed Rulemaking (NPRM) on Flight and Duty Time published on September 14th, 2010 may have a negative impact on flight safety.

While CAPA applauds the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) for looking at a broad range of causal factors with regard to fatigue mitigation, CAPA’s Safety professionals have exhaustively analyzed the NPRM and feel the solutions proposed by the FAA often address industry economic issues to the exclusion of safety concerns.

Although the proposal places limits on how long pilots can be on duty based on time of day, it falls short of the mark to protect pilots against fatigue in many areas.

1) The rule proposes a 25% increase in the amount of flying a pilot can be expected to accomplish in a day.
2) For augmented (3 person) crews there is no specified limit on hours flown in a duty day. Using only total duty as a limit, three pilots could fly as much as 15 hours, a 25% increase over today’s limit of 12 hours.
3) The rule calls for a 9 hour rest period which still does not allow enough rest time for a pilot to get 8 hours of sleep. This minimum rest would apply following extended international flights as well, a major reduction compared to today.
4) Even this 9 hour rest period can be shortened once a week to 8 hours, further inducing fatigue.

Pilot fatigue is an ever present threat to the safety of traveling public and has been identified on the National Transportation Safety Board’s “Most Wanted” list of regulatory changes for two decades. Logical regulatory reforms must take precedence with government regulators over the economic interests of the airline industry. Captain Paul Onorato, president of CAPA says, “You cannot make a pilot less fatigued by requiring them to fly more hours”.

The proposed rule has caught the attention of industry safety experts. In a recent letter to Administrator Babbitt, Captain Chesley “Sully” Sullenberger states, “The stated purpose of the rulemaking process was to enhance the safety of the traveling public by reducing pilot fatigue.This NPRM does neither”.

The Coalition of Airline Pilots Associations is a trade association which represents over 28,000 professional pilots at carriers including American Airlines, Southwest Airlines, UPS, US Airways, Southern Air, ABX Air, Atlas Air Cargo, Kalitta Air, Polar Air Cargo, Arrow Air, Horizon Air, Gulfstream Air, Cape Air, Miami Air, Omni Air and USA 3000.

 

[flybynite]

Well I hope they listen to Sulley because I agree.

They give with one hand and take away with the other.

A totally worthless proposal...imo.

The airline lobby had too much of their hand in this. And it shows...big time.

 

[KTM300]

Well I hope they listen to Sulley because I agree.

They give with one hand and take away with the other.

A totally worthless proposal...imo.

The airline lobby had too much of their hand in this. And it shows...big time.

You are absolutely right. This proposal, IMO, does not address the real issues that create fatigue and thus reduce safety.

It appears as if the ATA lobbiests got to the FAA again!

 

[cleardirect]

Two comments:

First, when most of us are gone, we (who are gone) really don't care what you do. Have at it.

Second, your scenario implies that a DOH/LOS list with C&R's actually does get implemented in the short term. So, tell me this: We keep hearing that that USAPA will be sued immediately over a DFR is indeed such a list is implemented in a new contract.

Bear with me here while we follow this scenario to a particular conclusion that your own post implies. You indicate that you will wait until you have the votes to redo the list a la Nicolau. Given that you had to wait, that would mean that you lost the DFR and the DOH/LOS list survived for a period of time while we old east farts attrited.

Do you really think that a DOH/LOS list that survived during this period (AFTER the much promised DFR suit is concluded with the list surviving your court challenge) can then be rearranged without the east pilots filing a DFR lawsuit? Do you really think your tactic would survive a DFR lawsuit? Good luck with that.

Yep there is that throw the junior guys under the bus attitude. The senior guys got yours leave the junior guys to pay the price. A true east unionist.

Second I was applying the east logic to this. All of you tell us that usapa won. The ninth agreed usapa can do whatever you want. Internal union dispute, good faith bargaining ect. So now you think that west will win the next DFR? So all of this has been a waste of time for everyone? Is that what you are saying?

Besides what has the legal genius been telling you guys? What case has Seham cited from the beginning? Rakestraw. A union can reorder a seniority list as long as it is for a good reason. Going back to an arbitrated list seems like a good reason to me. Punishing the junior east pilots that drove the 4-5 years delay in getting a contract by ignoring arbitration and stapling west pilots to the bottom of a contrived list seems like a good reason to me within a wide range of reasonableness. Maybe we redo that list and add some C&R that give back what was taken.

Or maybe the company wins their declaratory judgment and usapa never even gets a chance to negotiate anything. So we are right back where we started 3-4 years ago getting what we all agreed to. But you senior guys end up paying the price by passing up the pay raise and improved contract. If that happens it will be the junior guy throwing the senior guys under the bus. Either situation your east guys are throwing someone under the bus. Right NY bus driver!

 

[luvn737s]

Well I hope they listen to Sulley because I agree.

They give with one hand and take away with the other.

A totally worthless proposal...imo.

The airline lobby had too much of their hand in this. And it shows...big time.

How can the east continue it's marriage to a contract that allows commuter-airline style stand-up overnights and exhausting 5-day pairings and expect any credibility in it's opposition to the new Flt/Rest rules? The east will never sign a contract that would improve their quality of life because of their misinterpretation of the Nicolau decision (or so we're told).

 

[autofixer]

How can the east continue it's marriage to a contract that allows commuter-airline style stand-up overnights and exhausting 5-day pairings and expect any credibility in it's opposition to the new Flt/Rest rules? The east will never sign a contract that would improve their quality of life because of their misinterpretation of the Nicolau decision (or so we're told).

We DO NOT have 5 day pairings and there are many very senior people who love, and thus, only fly "on duty all night trips." Where do you people get your misinformation? "Why let the truth get in the way of a good story?"

 

[767jetz]

The east will never sign a contract that would improve their quality of life because of their misinterpretation of the Nicolau decision (or so we're told).

Two days and still no comment by the most active east supporters about Judge Silver's order for USAPA to submit their motion by the 21st, in compliance with the rules set forth.

I noticed that when those of us who support the west are faced with a setback, most of us acknowledge the events, collect ourselves, move forward, and continue to discuss the facts without a temper tantrum. The east not so much. It will be interesting to see what happens on the 21st deadline.

Could it be that USAPA and it's leadership actually realize the corner they have put themselves in, and hope of continued support is quickly collapsing?

I disagree with the word never in the above quote. I realize it is said tongue-in-cheek. But IMO USAPA will eventually sign a contract that will improve their pay and quality of life, and include the Nic, because their options are running out sooner than later. It won't be long before enough east pilots join with the west to move forward. Probably not until after Cleary's recall though. Unfortunately, even with an improved contract it will take quite some time for everyone to recoup what's already been invested in a failed attempt to circumvent binding arbitration.

For the sake of the east, I hope the west will move forward when the Nic and a new contract is ratified, and not pursue damages. However, the longer this drags out I feel the greater the possibility the west will pursue damages, and no one can blame them for doing so.