US Pilots Labor Discussion 9/9- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[BoeingBoy]

ALPA whose merger policy swung in the breeze in order to appease whatever carrier had the most cash and members at the time.

A basic misunderstanding of how ALPA policy is set at the national level.

Back when USAPA was just a dream of Bradford's, I said that an independent union has pluses. But being formed to divide a pilot group by picking winners and losers negates many of those.

Jim

 

[Freebird]

Hi Freebird,

You wont be disappointed with the EU flying. For me, its the best part-time job I have ever had! It allows me to "play" when I do fly, and run the business with all the time I have on the farm/home.

My chin has always been up. It never had anything to do with what I was flying or impressing anyone. That's not the reason I took the job at U so many years ago. My nearest neighbors are over 1/2 mile away and could care less about what my other "day job" is.

Personally, the most important thing to me other than family is how my business is perceived by my customers. In that regard I am very fortunate as I have many more customers than product to sell.

Kubota,

As a business owner, I am sure you have high standards and like to pass those on to your customers. You must also value INTEGRITY and HONESTY, correct? You most likely do business with people and can trust both THEIR WORD and their HANDSHAKE.

Well that is the Exact opposite of Usapa and their attempt to circumvent an agreement between the East, the West and Management. Their MAIN purpose is to impose Date of Hire on the West. Are their intentions HONORABLE?

Would you do business with Usapa? If not, why do you support what they are trying to do to the West pilots?

I now have no need to read the Nic as it is now irrelevant. FYI, "I" didn't choose him, our previous representation did, but we've all but beaten that topic to the ground already haven't we?

I actually enjoy the flying even at the current pay. See above regarding the part time job. In my previous reply to you I explained my take on the pay issue so I don't quite understand your fixation on it?

Explain how the Nic is irrelevant. And if its irrelevant, whats the Hold up? What is stopping the COWARDLY tyrants at USAPA from their Dream List (cant wait for your answer).

You are/were represented by those people. They spoke for you. They agreed for you. BTW, what previous response?

IE; continuous posting of information we all already know? It's like your trying to convince us to grab for $$ and a contract proposal that as of now doesn't exist, and probably won't for some time to come.

The truth hasnt changed. Usapa's spin has muddied the water. Beware of the snake oil they are peddling. They have failed you to this point. About the $$, your group is so desperate to get DOH that they are LOSING $$$$ every minute of the day. You will never get that money or time back.

Being that you are fixated on the hourly rate thing...were you around for the short time at HP when they had 74's ? What was the pay like back then in comparison to what other carriers were paying on that eq type? Would also like to know what your feelings were during the many years that HP was the bottom leader (pay wise) just curious...

You still don't get it do you? It is not about the pay or the glamor The pay may get better, the "job" never was glamorous and anyone who follows this career path for the "Glamor" or to impress anyone is a fool.

You know as well as I do. And Cleary and Mowery and Sewer, that if you put a contract up for a vote, it would pass. The pilots are tired of this mess that Usapa has perpetuated. They are afraid that they would lose support.

Was I around for the 747's ? No. AWA was on their 2nd ALPA contract. Things were looking up and the morale was optimistic. It all changed when AWA maneuver to take over your failing company. I know its hard for most of you to believe, but your hours were numbered. Little digits.

Usapa = Our Intentions are DISHONORABLE.

 

[luvn737s]

Being that you are fixated on the hourly rate thing...were you around for the short time at HP when they had 74's ? What was the pay like back then in comparison to what other carriers were paying on that eq type? Would also like to know what your feelings were during the many years that HP was the bottom leader (pay wise) just curious...

You still don't get it do you? It is not about the pay or the glamor The pay may get better, the "job" never was glamorous and anyone who follows this career path for the "Glamor" or to impress anyone is a fool.

I'm glad you like your overnights. I got over that about 21 years ago. A Sheraton is a Sheraton and a Starbucks is a Starbucks. I really hope it never wears off for you.

The USAPA hardcore like to bring up AWA's historical payrate. However, they eventually brought in a union that IMPROVED pay and benefits, as you would expect a union to do. It's shameful that a union would expect you to pay them to make sure nothing ever happens and your lot never improves other than by attrition. What's a fair rate for doing nothing: 1%, 1.5% 2% or USAPA's 2%+ assessments including a never-ending assessment to pay for medical insurance for pilots no longer on furlough?

The west has constantly raised the bar for it's own pilots while US pilots allowed the bar to hit them on the head as they went under.

 

[Black Swan]

Kubota,

As a business owner, I am sure you have high standards and like to pass those on to your customers. You must also value INTEGRITY and HONESTY, correct? You most likely do business with people and can trust both THEIR WORD and their HANDSHAKE.

Well that is the Exact opposite of Usapa and their attempt to circumvent an agreement between the East, the West and Management. Their MAIN purpose is to impose Date of Hire on the West. Are their intentions HONORABLE?

Would you do business with Usapa? If not, why do you support what they are trying to do to the West pilots?



Explain how the Nic is irrelevant. And if its irrelevant, whats the Hold up? What is stopping the COWARDLY tyrants at USAPA from their Dream List (cant wait for your answer).

You are/were represented by those people. They spoke for you. They agreed for you. BTW, what previous response?



The truth hasnt changed. Usapa's spin has muddied the water. Beware of the snake oil they are peddling. They have failed you to this point. About the $$, your group is so desperate to get DOH that they are LOSING $$$$ every minute of the day. You will never get that money or time back.



You know as well as I do. And Cleary and Mowery and Sewer, that if you put a contract up for a vote, it would pass. The pilots are tired of this mess that Usapa has perpetuated. They are afraid that they would lose support.

Was I around for the 747's ? No. AWA was on their 2nd ALPA contract. Things were looking up and the morale was optimistic. It all changed when AWA maneuver to take over your failing company. I know its hard for most of you to believe, but your hours were numbered. Little digits.

Usapa = Our Intentions are DISHONORABLE.

Enough of the Integrity diatribe. Had you done a fair proposal, you might have gotten a contract. Your idea of integrity is what you want, for you and forget the rest. Tell me one more time, why would hundreds of east pilots, within reach of a widebody in both seats, take a minimal contract that keeps them out of the higher paying job that is coming very soon with the attrition anyway? If they took your idea of a contract with the Nic. it keeps them out of the seat forever. This is what you can't seem to get.

West Pilots=we keep floating the idea that you have to have a contract. The truth? We need it more than the east!

 

[luvthe9]

They need to dump ALPA.
Directly corresponds to ALPA whose merger policy swung in the breeze in order to appease whatever carrier had the most cash and members at the time. This is why ALPA is directly in danger of losing more carriers. Nobody needs them or their ridiculous merger ideas anymore. Next time you see a Delta Pilot, tell him/her the benefits of being independent. USAPA best money I have EVER spent.

I agree 100% you hit the nail right on the head.!!!!!

 

[pitchlow]

Not in the last two decades...

Jim

Does your statement apply to ALPA integrations or to all integrations worldwide.

 

[luvn737s]

Tell me one more time, why would hundreds of east pilots, within reach of a widebody in both seats, take a minimal contract that keeps them out of the higher paying job that is coming very soon with the attrition anyway? If they took your idea of a contract with the Nic. it keeps them out of the seat forever. This is what you can't seem to get.

West Pilots=we keep floating the idea that you have to have a contract. The truth? We need it more than the east!

Sure, because A. That was the agreement you entered into before USAPA came along and B. All USAPA members are entitled to vote on a contract even if is is inconvenient for many (or even most). Maybe the vote will go in favor of a contract, maybe not, but the vote cannot be withheld just to permit some members to enjoy the benefits of procrastination at the expense of others.

USAPA cannot choose to support one side at the expense of the other, it's as simple as that. Every move they have made since taking office points to that very behavior and the west pilots have chosen to find justice from this discrimination in the courts.

Tell me B/S, how long did you have to wait from the time you were hired to enjoy the first benefit of ALPA representation? Was it the first paycheck in training? Was it the ground rules established for protecting a pilot in training? Maybe it was the dinner you got to welcome you to USAir. Then ask the future new hire how long he will have to pay USAPA before seeing a benefit that was solely the achievement of USAPA and not a hold-over from ALPA. Explain to them the value of collecting money and doing NOTHING for 30 months and counting.

Best money you ever spent? Are you sure? I'll bet if you are honest to yourself and do the math (taking out the pension loss that was the pilot group choosing to buy their jobs with their pensions) you'll have a hard time equating the many years of benefits accrued under ALPA with the pitiful and shameful performance of USAPA.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Does your statement apply to ALPA integrations or all to all integrations worldwide.

Bigger U.S. carriers. I don't keep up with foreign carriers much. But if the two sides negotiate DOH under ALPA (with or without C&R's), that's fine under ALPA policy. If the arbitrator awards DOH (with or without C&R's) that's fine too. The ALPA merger policy doesn't dictate any particular outcome - it's the two sides, either through negotiations or arbitration, that decide the outcome.

Of course, if a future merger involved US seniority would be decided by negotiation, then arbitration if necessary (sound familiar?). Backed by federal law next time - no "internal union issue" arguments allowed. The DOH language in the C&B/L is just an attempt to get out of the arbitration for this merger - not the next.

Jim

 

[aquagreen73s]

This just in from Judge Silver


"On September 10, 2010, the Court granted Defendant USAPA permission to file a brief of no more than twenty-five pages in support of its motion to dismiss. (Doc. 42). On September 14, 2010, USAPA filed a thirty-eight page motion. (Doc. 43). Inexplicably, USAPA interpreted the Court’s order as allowing a thirty-eight page motion, provided USAPA used different numbering systems for the two sections of the motion. Page limits cannot be manipulated so easily. USAPA must file a motion of no more than twenty-five pages. The twenty-five pages is inclusive of any pages devoted to the background facts.

Accordingly, IT IS ORDERED the Motion to Strike (Doc. 44) is GRANTED. The Memorandum
(Doc. 43) is STRICKEN.

IT IS FURTHER ORDERED USAPA shall file a motion of no more than twenty-five pages no later than September 21, 2010.

Roslyn O. Silver
United States District Judge
DATED this 17th day of September, 2010.

 

[Phoenix]

Past practice
Is the union standard in union merger

Were not talking about changing pants

Some folks are wedded to the idea that pilot's are special and need to be unique from all other unions, even to the point that they think all other union practices are just union practices for "those" other type unions, not for pilots. Pilot unions are a breed apart from those regular unions and unaffected by regular, century-old union practices, so they say.

 

[Metroyet]

This just in from Judge Silver


"On September 10, 2010, the Court granted Defendant USAPA permission to file a brief of no more than twenty-five pages in support of its motion to dismiss. (Doc. 42). On September 14, 2010, USAPA filed a thirty-eight page motion. (Doc. 43). Inexplicably, USAPA interpreted the Court’s order as allowing a thirty-eight page motion, provided USAPA used different numbering systems for the two sections of the motion. Page limits cannot be manipulated so easily. USAPA must file a motion of no more than twenty-five pages. The twenty-five pages is inclusive of any pages devoted to the background facts.

Accordingly, IT IS ORDERED the Motion to Strike (Doc. 44) is GRANTED. The Memorandum
(Doc. 43) is STRICKEN.

IT IS FURTHER ORDERED USAPA shall file a motion of no more than twenty-five pages no later than September 21, 2010.

Roslyn O. Silver
United States District Judge
DATED this 17th day of September, 2010.

One has to wonder how much $e$ham's junior varsity legal abilities just cost the union.25 grand for a worthless document and pissing off yet ANOTHER federal Judge.

Are any of you guys ever going to get fed up with this fools errand and the bush league hack that is billking you for nearly 10 MILLION DOLLARS?! $e$ham is an utter embarrassment.

 

[BoeingBoy]

Two down, sixteen left to tick off. And another word - stricken - to argue about the meaning of. But at least they got a do over so it can be spun as a win.

Jim

 

[hp_fa]

This just in from Judge Silver


"On September 10, 2010, the Court granted Defendant USAPA permission to file a brief of no more than twenty-five pages in support of its motion to dismiss. (Doc. 42). On September 14, 2010, USAPA filed a thirty-eight page motion. (Doc. 43). Inexplicably, USAPA interpreted the Court’s order as allowing a thirty-eight page motion, provided USAPA used different numbering systems for the two sections of the motion. Page limits cannot be manipulated so easily. USAPA must file a motion of no more than twenty-five pages. The twenty-five pages is inclusive of any pages devoted to the background facts.

I see they are busy making friends with another desert judge.

 

[aquagreen73s]

I see they are busy making friends with another desert judge.

I think they're about to find out that Judge Wake was actually very accommodating.

 

[767jetz]

This just in from Judge Silver


"On September 10, 2010, the Court granted Defendant USAPA permission to file a brief of no more than twenty-five pages in support of its motion to dismiss. (Doc. 42). On September 14, 2010, USAPA filed a thirty-eight page motion. (Doc. 43). Inexplicably, USAPA interpreted the Court’s order as allowing a thirty-eight page motion, provided USAPA used different numbering systems for the two sections of the motion. Page limits cannot be manipulated so easily. USAPA must file a motion of no more than twenty-five pages. The twenty-five pages is inclusive of any pages devoted to the background facts.

Accordingly, IT IS ORDERED the Motion to Strike (Doc. 44) is GRANTED. The Memorandum
(Doc. 43) is STRICKEN.

IT IS FURTHER ORDERED USAPA shall file a motion of no more than twenty-five pages no later than September 21, 2010.

Roslyn O. Silver
United States District Judge
DATED this 17th day of September, 2010.

Unbelievable. And they lecture everyone else about interpretations of what a court does and doesn't mean. They can't even understand a simple page limit.

How embarrassing for USAPA and it's supporters.