US Pilots Labor Discussion 9/9- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[767jetz]

I have been waiting for someone, anyone, to recognize something. Specifically that all of the testimony and discovery exchanged in Addington is still testimony or records obtained under oath. So if people's stories magically change in the new trial they will be called on it and impeached right there in court.

The moral here is that testimony was obtained under oath and the fact that Addington was dismissed on ripeness does not nullify the various evidence and testimony obtained under oath.

It wasn't all a waste. It was just premature.

BINGO! But don't expect any USAPA supporters to understand or accept this. You will be dealt with harshly for daring to reveal the truth. You may even be accused of spinning out of control. Brace! Brace! Brace!

 

[BLT]

You Westies have had to have read the USA Today article on USAirways. Nice job! We have returned to the AWA position in the JD Power standings right where AWA was all these years ago. You cannot paint USAir on the side of it and continue to operate the way AWA did. Right back in the cellar. Good for Doug and Scooter though. It is on time and the bonuses keep coming. That is fabulous. "You work for a dirtbag outfit " is totally correct.

So then you admit that you are no longer working for the old USAirways as it no longer exists. So many of you have a hard time understanding that. Thank you for your candor.

 

[traderjake]

You should have brought us up on the pay. All I can say is, paybacks are hell.

Doug offered us the West contract, we didn't want it. That is not the West's fault.

Just keep slinging mud till some of it sticks.

 

[SparrowHawk]

Must be comforting to all that the end result of all of this is that now even Spirit Pilots make more money.

 

[BoeingBoy]

All the same evidence can be repeated, but the next time will include evidence that Wake excluded. Wake excluded key testimony and he excluded the threshold that must be broken to find a union guilty of breaching their DFR, a threshold the 9th cited from the SCOTUS. Their is no rational basis to conclude that a "Wake result" will repeat, aside from hopeful assumptions and willful delusions.

Carry on.

Just as there's nothing but personal opinion that says another DFR trial will come out differently. A new judge may exclude the same testimony that Wake excluded, or maybe not. Some stipulations made for the first trial may not be stipulated for the next trial due to events transpiring between the two trials. That may affect what threshold is used for determining whether a DFR occured, only one prong of which the 9th cited. There are plenty of hopeful assumptions and willful delusions on the East side as well.

Jim

 

[nycbusdriver]

Here's how it works...

I think we understood this already. What we are saying is that all of the testimony and depositions must be accomplished again, at great expense, again.

Ummm... you do realize that remand does not mean nullified, right? A current volume of the Webster's dictionary might help here.

What does Mr. Webster have to say about the word "dismiss?"

The case was indeed remanded to district court with order to "dismiss."

Doug offered us the West contract, we didn't want it. That is not the West's fault.

Just keep slinging mud till some of it sticks.

You're right. It's not the west's fault that the east saw the offer as a joke.

Doug offered us the West contract. I'll bet he regrets that every day. Had he offered something more realistic than the bottom-of-the-barrel compensation package that the west suffered under, and had made a realistic offer before Nicolau published his abomination, this airline would be very different right now.

(Before you go bragging about how much better the west contract is than what the east now has, let's be clear that during two bankruptcies it was the west contract that was the target that east management was aiming for to drag us down. We overshot by a bit. But our current work rules are only constrained by a side letter. Take a look at the underlying contract to see what the rest of the industry actually has or had. The west contract always has been the joke of the industry. Still is. Why would the east sign on to something so demeaning? Doug calculated that the east would bite on his ludicrous offer of a little raise, not realizing that we would see that offer as a permanent leap backward.)

 

[john john]

So then you admit that you are no longer working for the old USAirways as it no longer exists. So many of you have a hard time understanding that. Thank you for your candor.

Have you been paying attention. The EAST is well aware

 

[luvn737s]

jetz,

DOH is already in place. Separate operations is a reality. With the LOA 93 pay restoration just around the corner, listen up......no one on the east will be in any hurry to sign anything. You really should be locked on to the UAL/CO love fest that is about to happen. College buddy said it is already starting! We can't wait to watch the pros handle the mega merger.

Hate

You're welcome to your opinon, but if USAPA chooses to take sides again and support that through action or inaction, I'm afraid they weill find themselves in front of yet another judge.

I'd be interested in a comparison between the amount of money and time ALPA spent fighting their own members versus the amount USAPA has spent (say as a percentage of time they have been in existance). Any organization (not to mention a mostly volunteer one) can only strive to do so many things well: usapa must choose whether it wants to fight its members or fight FOR it's members.

What kind of union would YOU support?

 

[john john]

Wait. I thought a DOH contract was iron clad, slam dunk, internal union matter, etc. Which is it? Iron clad or separate ops forever?

DOH is already in full force with all airlines and union shops around the world.

As well with all unions at USAirways
DOH is iron clad HP pilots actions are trying jeopardizing unions DOH standard

 

[Metroyet]

I think we understood this already. What we are saying is that all of the testimony and depositions must be accomplished again, at great expense, again.

You guys don't seem to understand that DFR 2.0 is currently underway in the form of the Companies request for Declaratory Judgment. There aren't going to BE any depositions and moreover, it's going to be ruled on from the bench. No Jury trial is required as there are no damages or monetary claims. Much more efficient. I'm trying to recall if The Honorable Neil M. Wake said anything during the Addington trial that might foreshadow how he views USAPAs obligations to the West Pilots in regards to the Nicalau Award....hmmm. I wonder. Anyway, once it's determined that the company is going to be just as liable as USAPA if they accept a list other than the Nic, this thing is over. Sure, you guys can still attempt to hold your breath until you get what you unlawfully demand but at some point the train will move on without you. CAL/UAL is on the verge of a industry leading contract. Spirit, Alaska, Jetblue, Delta and American have already left you guys in the financial dust. USAPA has ZERO credibility or clout with the company. Mike Cleary and the ENTIRE USAPA machine is flicked off Doug Parkers sleeve like a nuisance mosquito and that impotence will directly translate into hundreds of millions of MORE dollars forever lost by your pilot group as a direct result of your unlawful activities performed behind a pathetically thin veil of a "labor union".

Where does USAPA get the arrogance to actually believe their own constituents are SO stupid that they can't ascertain truth from fantasy? Why does Cleary waste his breath trying to convince anybody that the company is at fault for a contractual delay? Honestly, is there ANYONE out there dumb enough to NOT know exactly why East pilots are STILL at the bottom of the contractual cess pool 5 years after the merger....with no end in sight? This is the COMPANY'S fault? Cleary can't even be bothered to show up at ANY scheduled meetings with management. For nearly 200k a year, one would think the Dear Leader should be at least minimally responsible to perform at least ONE task reminiscent of a union official...but then again, this is USAPA. They exist an an entirely different plane from reality. I guess I shouldn't be surprised that it's okay a select few stuff their faces at the trough and provide nothing. Wasn't that what mean old evil ALPA was accused of?

Any East pilot that feels like an indentured servant (I would) can find the Nearest USAPA voter (more than likely staring him back in the mirror) and offer his sincere gratitude for their impeccable foresight, and unparalleled wisdom.

 

[kubotapilot]

Hi Freebird,

FYI...His little FRA trip is a 17+ hour 3day (barely a 3 day, actually 45 hours TAFB) with a great overnight and easy NAT flying

Just got back from Athens. Over 21 hours pay for a very easy 3 day.

The pay rate may not be as "lucrative" as it was, maybe will be better in the future, but one thing for sure...the flying is fantastic, the overnite beat the pants off the "Twin Palms" or anything domestic. Heck, even our "Junior" GLA or DUB or MAN trips are a blast!

You can keep all that lucrative, high yield flying at American West. Separate ops is the way to go. For some reason some of you guys believe that our attrition etc...(Nic) can be bought...It's not all about the money.

Yassou!

You must LUV low pay as well.

Congratulations on the 'upgrade'. You're still making less money than Spirit. Enjoy your success. Those 4 Day trips that pay 3 make the lucrative "INTL" flying so appealing.

Study some grammar on the long legs. It will make your post comprehensible.

Usapa = We dont care about the top 517, they dont NEED a raise.

 

[RSVP767]

Ummm... you do realize that remand does not mean nullified, right? A current volume of the Webster's dictionary might help here.

Again with the merit -vs- ripeness confusion. (hrmphhh. sigh.) Yet someone has yet to produce the exact words from the ninth saying the case had no merit. (Interpretations and reading between the lines don't count here.)

No you can't. Can I somehow get it through to you that merit and ripeness have nothing to do with each other? I didn't think so. Which is why I suggested about 10 pages ago that we all stop debating something so entrenched. Can we move on now? I'm tired.

Please.....the case was DISMISSED DUE TO RIPENESS. Which means it should not have been heard. Which means that whatever merits were involved have no merit because there was no case. This is why the 9th did not rule on merit. You won't find words from the 9th saying the case had no merit because they couldn't. What they did say was:......wait for it......wait for it........'it's not even a case yet'! Having found the case not ripe they could not rule on merit because they essentially did not exist for this case once the case was found to be NOT RIPE.

Are you getting it yet?

While you have your Webster's out, look up DISMISS.

I particularly liked this definition: To rid one's mind of.

 

[luvthe9]

Please.....the case was DISMISSED DUE TO RIPENESS. Which means it should not have been heard. Which means that whatever merits were involved have no merit because there was no case. This is why the 9th did not rule on merit. You won't find words from the 9th saying the case had no merit because they couldn't. What they did say was:......wait for it......wait for it........'it's not even a case yet'! Having found the case not ripe they could not rule on merit because they essentially did not exist for this case once the case was found to be NOT RIPE.

Are you getting it yet?

While you have your Webster's out, look up DISMISS.

I particularly liked this definition: To rid one's mind of.

Don't worry. Vasin, Koontz and especially Jacobs are busy engineering another costly mistake. The pipeline terminates at Posinelli Shugart like a hit at the Marcellus Shale.
Leonidas=Jacobs=Just Another Cash Or Bond Suckdown J.A.C.O.B.S.

 

[767jetz]

The case was indeed remanded to district court with order to "dismiss."

Exactly. It was remanded (sent back to the lower court with instruction) to the district court with order to dismiss... due to ripeness, not merit.

This is my main point. The merit does not disappear just because the case was not ripe. Too many people say one can not exist without the other. That is false.

This was not a "mistrial." There was no determination of foul play, witness tampering, perjury, etc. The discovery and testimony happened, and still exist as a matter of record. The fact that a jury (who did not know the case was not ripe at the time) handed down a verdict of guilty does not disappear. There is plenty of ammunition from the first DFR case that can and certainly will be harvested by the west if DFR#2 comes to pass.

I agree that the previous guilty verdict does not play a legal role in a future case since a new judge and jury may or may not have the same evidence or interpretation of the facts. The west can't just say, "look they were guilty the first time, therefore they are guilty again." But contrary to the assertions of some, DFR #1 and all that went along with it, does not vanish into thin air as if it never happened. A person who stands in front of a judge for a crime, having a history of being accused of the same crime in the past although never convicted, will certainly be looked upon differently than a person with a squeaky clean record. Especially to a jury of his peers. That's just the way the world often works.

My second point is that by taking the chance and filing the case "prematurely" the west, at a very minimum, guaranteed the statute of limitations would not expire, depriving USAPA of a possible dismissal on that particular technicality in the future. Just like chess, it's a calculated move. It is not a waste of $2M by any means based on those two points. Some say the East has wasted their time and money defending the indefensible. As we all know, wastefulness is in the eye of the beholder.

A final thought on court proceedings and the law. As pilots we are used to things being black or white. It's SOP or it's not. It's on the checklist or it's not. In law there are often various interpretations and different criteria to meet. Is it beyond a reasonable doubt, or just a preponderance of the evidence? People have been found guilty of crimes without ever finding the "smoking gun." There are technicalities. There are loop holes. There's ripeness. There's merit. There's always another appeal on the horizon. This is why no one can predict with complete certainty, the outcome of any of this.

 

[767jetz]

DOH is already in full force with all airlines and union shops around the world.

Hmmmm. Not with pilots during a merger however. When was the last DOH pilot integration? How many non-DOH integrations have there been since then? Unfortunately you statement above is irrelevant in this situation.