US Pilots Labor Discussion 9/9- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[mikey60]

Someday I'll wish upon a star, and wake up where the clouds are far behind me.

Til then, I'll just hang out in my pontification t-shirt with Chewbacca, until the Nic is implemented. The wookie does sound kind of like a usapa supporter though.

the many moods of usapa

This is actually the PHX crew room after the 9th ruled.

 

[Heretic]

Someday I'll wish upon a star, and wake up where the clouds are far behind me.

Til then, I'll just hang out in my pontification t-shirt with Chewbacca, until the Nic is implemented. The wookie does sound kind of like a usapa supporter though.

the many moods of usapa

Since we are waxing poetic.. We are all basically lobbing mortar shells from our entrenched positions. Sometimes "facts" stick, sometimes they slide down the wall as the poop that they are. Oh, and sometimes they are utterlly deleted. Good luck with excrement adherence.

 

[Black Swan]

Because in the opinion of most here, it is only a matter of time. Just because there have been legal challenges does not mean it is not binding as you imply. The process is still working it's way through. Either USAPA will eventually accept it or, the legal landscape will take it's course, resulting most likely in the award standing.

It IS binding. The only thing that USAPA has accomplished to date is delaying the inevitable. (IMO of course.) I suppose to some that is a victory. But as others have speculated (not me but others), if damages are eventually awarded that victory of delay may be hollow.

disclaimer: Before anyone gets up in arms over the "D" word, let's be clear. IMO that would be a worst case scenario and only one of several possible outcomes at this point.

Then explain why the LOA 93 award, whichever way it goes, is going to be final and binding, and the Nic is not. I'll tell you why. It is because the representative body was changed from one to another. The Nicolau was an ALPA process, and USAPA was elected with new C&BL's. One is internal union affairs, seniority. The other is a dispute between the company and workers, two separate entities. Not an internal affair of unions by any stretch. It is only a matter of time before this becomes clear, one more time. Even after the 9th made it abundantly clear.

 

[Black Swan]

What says B.S. now?

Jim

BS says you can't do it. As much as you say it is final and binding, it is neither final nor binding. You cannot make it happen. It is readily apparent. Backed by the 9th. And that is what counts.

 

[Black Swan]

They didn't, but that is just another example of some on the East side reading what that want from a word or fragment of a sentence. Just another version of "USAPA can do whatever it wants. The 9th said so."

Jim

Nobody said USAPA could do as they wish. We are well aware of representational responsibility. It is fact the Wests' posture of eternal damage potential is so absurd it is unattainable. They have cause the east tremendous hardship in doing nothing but hold pay down. The west will have to answer to this as the east got them the DC and the profit sharing. How is this damage? The west has absolutely no endeavor that could be taken as anything but harmful to the east pilots. This will be used against them if it ever comes to it. Their biggest mistake was not working to pay parity. This will come back to haunt in more ways than one.

 

[Hate2fly]

Looks like the Delta pilots are starting to act like the US Airways East pilots....................................

OscarJazz this probably has your head spinning.

767Jetzz you guys will be next. Having lunch with college roomate tomorrow UAL 320 Capt.....DOH supporter....

ALPA's days will be numbered if the DL/UA pilots make the smart move.

Hate

http://www.delta-pilots.org/

 

[BoeingBoy]

BS says you can't do it. As much as you say it is final and binding, it is neither final nor binding. You cannot make it happen. It is readily apparent. Backed by the 9th. And that is what counts.

There's spin and there's that answer, which has absolutely nothing to do with USAPA seeking to delay the LOA 93 ruling, which was being discussed when I made the post you quoted.

But since you're on the subject, the 9th said absolutely nothing about the Nic not being final and binding. In fact, they explicitly said "We do not address the 'thorny' question of the extent to which the Nicolau Award is binding on USAPA" in one of the footnotes addressing the dissent. But I'll give you a chance to quote the part of the 9th ruling where they said that the Nic wasn't final and binding on USAPA.

Jim

 

[Black Swan]

Maybe the DAL guys figured the potential in another merger was too risky. This is why this profession is no longer a profession. You hitch your star to a company, there is an economic burp or terrorist attack, and you are potential meat for a scavanger to jump on your potential carcass and have them climb up your back with any sort of story of why it is right.And then they shrug it off, and justify it like any one of us had the means to deal with it. Pathetic. That is why I would never want any of my friends or relatives to ever get into it until there is a real sense of craft and professional system of seniority. This is why ALPA is going to be in deeper and deeper trouble. It is unfortunate. A once proud and noble entity has gone soft and political. It will pay for that lack of a sense of craft and true labor cohesion.The USAirways pilots were the harbinger of the trouble ahead. Prater did not have the guts to do what was right, and now it is going to be trouble.

 

[RSVP767]

Looks like the Delta pilots are starting to act like the US Airways East pilots....................................

OscarJazz this probably has your head spinning.

767Jetzz you guys will be next. Having lunch with college roomate tomorrow UAL 320 Capt.....DOH supporter....

ALPA's days will be numbered if the DL/UA pilots make the smart move.

Hate

http://www.delta-pilots.org/

They are beginning to see the light!

 

[mikey60]

Maybe the DAL guys figured the potential in another merger was too risky. This is why this profession is no longer a profession. You hitch your star to a company, there is an economic burp or terrorist attack, and you are potential meat for a scavanger to jump on your potential carcass and have them climb up your back with any sort of story of why it is right.And then they shrug it off, and justify it like any one of us had the means to deal with it. Pathetic. That is why I would never want any of my friends or relatives to ever get into it until there is a real sense of craft and professional system of seniority. This is why ALPA is going to be in deeper and deeper trouble. It is unfortunate. A once proud and noble entity has gone soft and political. It will pay for that lack of a sense of craft and true labor cohesion.The USAirways pilots were the harbinger of the trouble ahead. Prater did not have the guts to do what was right, and now it is going to be trouble.

A friend of mine at Delta tells me they expect a vote by May 2011.

 

[nic4us]

Maybe the DAL guys figured the potential in another merger was too risky.

Prater did not have the guts to do what was right, and now it is going to be trouble.

How would another merger be any less risky outside of ALPA for DAL? McCaskill-Bond guarantees the same process ALPA has.

You are absolutely right about Prater. He should have handed the Nic to Parker himself the day after Nicolau published it. Prater's blatant failure of his DFR to the West was flagrant He opened a can of worms that caused problems with the PHL reps and lost the property for ALPA. I cannot believe they have not replaced him.

 

[nycbusdriver]

There's spin and there's that answer, which has absolutely nothing to do with USAPA seeking to delay the LOA 93 ruling, which was being discussed when I made the post you quoted.

But since you're on the subject, the 9th said absolutely nothing about the Nic not being final and binding. In fact, they explicitly said "We do not address the 'thorny' question of the extent to which the Nicolau Award is binding on USAPA" in one of the footnotes addressing the dissent. But I'll give you a chance to quote the part of the 9th ruling where they said that the Nic wasn't final and binding on USAPA.

Jim

Well, gee. If the 9th sees the Nic as a thorny QUESTION, what does that tell you? If there is a QUESTION at all, that would seem to indicate they see some doubt in the Nic's survival.

 

[767jetz]

It is because the representative body was changed from one to another. blah,blah, blah...

OMG! :blink: I can't believe there are still those who subscribe to this theory of hiding from binding arbitration by changing their name. Honestly, is there really a need to debate this point endlessly? Neither side will be convinced of the others position. One thing is for certain, when the dust settles we will all know for sure how final or not binding arbitration really is.

 

[cleardirect]

Then explain why the LOA 93 award, whichever way it goes, is going to be final and binding, and the Nic is not. I'll tell you why. It is because the representative body was changed from one to another. The Nicolau was an ALPA process, and USAPA was elected with new C&BL's. One is internal union affairs, seniority. The other is a dispute between the company and workers, two separate entities. Not an internal affair of unions by any stretch. It is only a matter of time before this becomes clear, one more time. Even after the 9th made it abundantly clear.

So using your logic when you old guys start to retire and the west takes control. We bring ALPA back redo the seniority list to return what we should have had plus interest. Internal dispute. New union. Not my deal that was usapa.

Hope you junior guys did not plan on stealing seniority for to long. About 5 more years of usapa failure should soften up the east. Retire on LOA 93. Seniority will be the least of your problems.

 

[767jetz]

Looks like the Delta pilots are starting to act like the US Airways East pilots....................................

Not likely. Did you happen to read the FAQ'a on the site listed? Here's a quote:

"You may create your own method of distribution, but we ask the following guidelines be considered:

... 2. Keep it positive. Don’t slander or denigrate other organizations."

Doesn't sound like any East pilot I've seen in these parts.

If you seriously believe they will get 5000+ ALPA pilots to change teams, well... I've got a couple of bridges in NY for sale.

This has about as much a chance of success as the failed UPA attempt at UA a few years ago. That one fizzled with about 3% - 5% backing UPA. A far cry from the 51% needed.

Every airline has it's handful of malcontents. Some just have more than others.

Even if DL left ALPA to form their own union, at least they won't be doing it with the explicit intent of avoiding binding arbitration or any other commitments. I say if they are really that unhappy with the representation they have with ALPA, they should leave and find something better. I just doubt they will muster the numbers they need to do it. Either way, I personally couldn't care less. I'm not sure I understand the East obsession with ALPA at other airlines, since it has zero effect on the situation you've created for yourselves.