US Pilots Labor Discussion 9/9- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[cleardirect]

There was never a request to delay. You are misinformed. There is no way the arbitrator would delay putting out the decision. It is in his hands now. He will release it when he is ready, not when anyone asks him too.

You really need to stop listening to the spin from usapa and find out the facts. "There are no tanks in Badad." usapa never asked for a delay.

This is part of a letter sent from the company to the arbitrator in response to a letter from usapa. The entire letter is on other web sites and has been verified. What you should be asking is why usapa has not published the letter from Theresa Murphy usapa's laywer to the arbitrator. Why hide the letter. Why the delay from usapa? If this case is such a winning why not push hard and get your raise? Instead delay the outcome to give Cleary an issue and hold the usapa loyalists at bay a little longer.

2.5 years no contract, no snap back, no DOH. How much longer will the east pilots follow usapa down the wrong path?

August 27, 2010

Re: US Airways and USAPA - Case Number BPR 09-06-02 East (Snap Back wage case)

Dear Arbitrator Kasher:

This will respond to the August 23,2010 letter sent by Union Board member Theresa Murphy. Ms. Murphy's letter requests that you delay issuing to Board members a draft Opinion in this case, instead issue only a draft Statement of Facts/Statement of Positions, and then "allow for the possible opportunity for a follow-up face-to-face executive session prior to issuing the draft Opinion." We oppose this request, for the following reasons:

1. The process suggested by Ms. Murphy will cause an additional significant delay in the conclusion of this case. This delay will occur due to her belated request for a two-step bifurcated preparation of the Opinion, and due to the request for a "face-to-face meeting." In fact, it is hard to avoid the conclusion that delay is her motive for making the request. This is not acceptable to the Company or to the many pilots affected by this grievance. As you will recall, the completion of this case has already been delayed by USAPA's prior requests. Although we finished the evidentiary hearing on February 4, 2010, we could not close the record until April 28, due to USAPA's desire to submit additional expert testimony (eventually via offer of proof, but only after counsel was required to schedule a conference call with you on April 8, to ensure that the case would be concluded without further delay). This is a grievance over staggering sums of money that USAPA chose to publicize to all the pilots. That publicity has an obvious impact on the Company and its pilots. In that circumstance, we respectfully request that USAP A not be permitted to cause any further delay to the final resolution of this case.

 

[767jetz]

Someone explain why you cannot make it become reality if it is supposedly set in stone.

Because in the opinion of most here, it is only a matter of time. Just because there have been legal challenges does not mean it is not binding as you imply. The process is still working it's way through. Either USAPA will eventually accept it or, the legal landscape will take it's course, resulting most likely in the award standing.

It IS binding. The only thing that USAPA has accomplished to date is delaying the inevitable. (IMO of course.) I suppose to some that is a victory. But as others have speculated (not me but others), if damages are eventually awarded that victory of delay may be hollow.

disclaimer: Before anyone gets up in arms over the "D" word, let's be clear. IMO that would be a worst case scenario and only one of several possible outcomes at this point.

 

[BoeingBoy]

What says B.S. now?

Jim

 

[CallawayGolf]

Either side can also then renegotiate the pay rates to something different in the next contract. No one will accept this arbitrators decision on pay rates as final and binding...forever.

Yes final and binding is an easy concept as in easy to understand it only lasts until the next agreement supersedes and abandons it.

underpants

Excellent post. I believe you have made remarkable progress in your understanding of the situation. In the case of the LOA93 grievance whatever the arbitrator rules will be what Management and the East pilots have to accept until a new, joint CBA is ratified.

Your same logic holds true for the Nicolau seniority arbitration. The NIC list will be binding on all parties and will be included in the next ratified CBA. Once that occurs the seniority scenario devised by Nicolau will remain in effect until a new CBA is ratified many years down the road. The possibility of the NIC being modified post-ratification would be governed by the situation at hand at the time of the next contract such as a merger with another carrier or the normal processes and rules governing seniority modifications within the legal framework for doing so. That of course is many years down the road, assuming that the current issue of ratifying the first joint CBA comes in this lifetime.

 

[Barrister]

Excellent post. I believe you have made remarkable progress in your understanding of the situation. In the case of the LOA93 grievance whatever the arbitrator rules will be what Management and the East pilots have to accept until a new, joint CBA is ratified.

Your same logic holds true for the Nicolau seniority arbitration. The NIC list will be binding on all parties and will be included in the next ratified CBA. Once that occurs the seniority scenario devised by Nicolau will remain in effect until a new CBA is ratified many years down the road. The possibility of the NIC being modified post-ratification would be governed by the situation at hand at the time of the next contract such as a merger with another carrier or the normal processes and rules governing seniority modifications within the legal framework for doing so. That of course is many years down the road, assuming that the current issue of ratifying the first joint CBA comes in this lifetime.

Wrong again....once NIC is in a RATIFIED CBA it cannot be changed. The 9th told you that!!

NICDOA
NPJB

 

[cleardirect]

What says B.S. now?

Jim

That the letter is not real.
It is a conspiracy perpetuated by ALPA
ALPA bad, usapa good.
Majority rules.
RLA.
Internal union dispute.
Not ripe.

One or all of them.

 

[Barrister]

Because in the opinion of most here, it is only a matter of time. Just because there have been legal challenges does not mean it is not binding as you imply. The process is still working it's way through. Either USAPA will eventually accept it or, the legal landscape will take it's course, resulting most likely in the award standing.

It IS binding. The only thing that USAPA has accomplished to date is delaying the inevitable. (IMO of course.) I suppose to some that is a victory. But as others have speculated (not me but others), if damages are eventually awarded that victory of delay may be hollow.

disclaimer: Before anyone gets up in arms over the "D" word, let's be clear. IMO that would be a worst case scenario and only one of several possible outcomes at this point.

It should have become apparent to most that labor law is a strange animal.
The court one step below the Supremes has strongly suggested that the NIC
is not the law of the land. They easily could have with one senence...even in
their dicta. They did not. This could easily wind up back in the 9th, where I
am sure they will give great weight to their OWN legal writing. The only question
is how long do you think the East will fight......well... what do you think???
Guys you have seriously underestimated our resolve. We have actually learned to adapt.
Why would we be willing to take a small pay rise only to see guys younger
(measured in terms of 3-10 years) than us take the blocks on the 330s the 76s the 75s
and our F/Os who will be delayed in checking out for years. Most guys here don't believe
your models of a 2 years delay for our F/Os. They know that a CEO who doesn't want to grow
throws the models out of the window. The fact is the majority of us will be GONE in 10 years.
Somehting that NIC fatally forgot. The risk is all on your side. Last time I looked the WEST
was also lagging tremendously in pay rates. How long can you stay in the kitchen??
Will I pay 180 a month in dues to keep us in seperate ops. Yes!! Until you have the numbers
to vote USAPA out, we aren't going anywhere! And even then it will take years.

NICDOA
NPJB

 

[CallawayGolf]

Wrong again....once NIC is in a RATIFIED CBA it cannot be changed. The 9th told you that!!

NICDOA
NPJB

The NIC is the product of a Transition Agreement that defined and legally bound all three parties to determine an integrated seniority list/system. That Agreement led to a Binding Arbitration process and the resulting “Nicolau Award”. The Transition Agreement legally obligates and defines the rights and limitations on the three parties until a jointly ratified CBA is in effect. Once that event occurs the parties are no longer bound by its terms as it will be rendered null, void, or terminated. The new CBA will take over where the TA left off with all of its sections agreed to by Management and the CBA with approval of the MIGS via ratification. At that point the NIC seniority system in place for all US pilots will have as much of a chance of survival or revision as any other seniority system in any other RLA workgroup across the country. That process would spawn a whole new discussion as to what the immoral but brazen leadership of USAPA can/cannot do.

Exactly where did the 9th address this potentiality (i.e. "tell me that") and instruct us that once the NIC is in place in a new CBA that it would become unchangeable forevermore regardless of any and all circumstances?

 

[BoeingBoy]

Exactly where did the 9th address this potentiality...

They didn't, but that is just another example of some on the East side reading what that want from a word or fragment of a sentence. Just another version of "USAPA can do whatever it wants. The 9th said so."

Jim

 

[Freighterguynow]

The NIC list will be binding on all parties and will be included in the next ratified CBA.

Try not to use Nic and ratified in the same sentence.

 

[CallawayGolf]

Try not to use Nic and ratified in the same sentence.

Right; because USAPA keeps putting out NIC inclusive TAs for the MIGS to ratify but the votes just aren't there. I don't recall, what was the vote count on the last TA USAPA put out which included pay increases and enhanced work rules for all pilots?

 

[cleardirect]

Show of hands! How many east pilots think that you will be released and able to strike by the end of the year? How about by summer next year? 2012?

Despite the screaming coming from planet usapia This is what usapa told the courts. So what are the pilots to believe? The spin from usapa or the spin from the lawyers that they will have to defend in front of a judge under oath?

This is from usapa’s motion to dismiss. BTW, the DiOrio declaration is the head NAC dude. He might know how far away being released we are.

Finally, contrary to US Airways’ allegations, the possibility of a strike is hardly imminent. Collective bargaining under the Railway Labor Act has been described by the Supreme Court as “an almost interminable process.” Detroit & Toledo Shore Line RR Co. v. United Transp. Union, 396 U.S. 142, 149 (1969). A work stoppage would require exhaustion of all of the Act’s requirements including a “release” from mediated negotiations by the NMB. See Brotherhood of R.R. Trainmen v. Jacksonville Terminal Co.,
394 U.S. 369 (1969). Furthermore, US Airways recently argued that invocation of the NMB’s mediation services (a necessary first step to any self-help) would not be “fruitful” because “the chasm between the parties’ bargaining positions [was] so dramatic.” (DiOrio 16 See Doc. # 18 at 10-12 & Doc. # 32 at 4-9 for full discussion of lack of harm suffered by US Airways and its representations to investors detailing same.
Case 2:10-cv-01570-ROS Document 43 Filed 09/14/10 Page 32 of 47
Decl. ¶ 15, Ex. A). Moreover, the Company’s refusal to supply data necessary to reconcile costing differences between the parties and its take-it-or-leave-it bargaining approach have, in the past two years, resulted in “little, if any, progress” on the major high cost sections of the contract (DiOrio Decl. ¶ 9). Given that the parties’ bargaining positions are miles apart on the major non-seniority contract sections and that the NMB only recently invoked its mediation jurisdiction, any allegation that the seniority issue in and of itself presents the possibility of an imminent work stoppage is utterly without merit.

 

[Freighterguynow]

Right; because USAPA keeps putting out NIC inclusive TAs for the MIGS to ratify but the votes just aren't there. I don't recall, what was the vote count on the last TA USAPA put out which included pay increases and enhanced work rules for all pilots?

Ah, the West fantasy about some hidden groundswell of support that'll get a Nic TA. You'll find that at the end of the rainbow (along with your damages) maybe even Angie Jolie will ring your door with a keg too.

Thanks to the latest AOL dork-a-thon and old Nic 4 who captured the elusive pontification yet whiny t shirt give away - even our senior A-330 and Nic proof pilots don't want you in their cockpits.

What is it with the Star Wars obsession? It's the Wookie isn't it?

 

[cleardirect]

Ah, the West fantasy about some hidden groundswell of support that'll get a Nic TA. You'll find that at the end of the rainbow (along with your damages) maybe even Angie Jolie will ring your door with a keg too.

Thanks to the latest AOL dork-a-thon and old Nic 4 who captured the elusive pontification yet whiny t shirt give away - even our senior A-330 and Nic proof pilots don't want you in their cockpits.

What is it with the Star Wars obsession? It's the Wookie isn't it?

Guess what. We don't want you in our cockpits either. But professionals do the job. If that means flying with someone we don't like personally we will do it. If some east pilots are unable to deal with it then they can find somewhere else to have their tantrum.

Parker did not put this together for the east flying pleasure. Deal with it or retire on LOA 93. We have longer to wait and longer to make up the east emotion outburst. The 330 captain can retire right where he is making just what he is making.

 

[nic4us]

You'll find that at the end of the rainbow

Thanks to old Nic 4

What is it with the Star Wars obsession?

Someday I'll wish upon a star, and wake up where the clouds are far behind me.

Til then, I'll just hang out in my pontification t-shirt with Chewbacca, until the Nic is implemented. The wookie does sound kind of like a usapa supporter though.

the many moods of usapa