US Pilots Labor Discussion 9/9- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[767jetz]

The best place to start would to not put a pilot who was never furloughed with 17 yrs of uninterrupted service in with a new hire.

We will also never put a 16 (or any other number) year furloughed pilot ahead of a pilot with a job, regardless of YOS, DOH, LOS, or any other acronym you care to use.

We will also never put a junior E190 f/o or A320 f/o ahead of an airbus captain, regardless of the same.

The VERY junior f/o's at USAirways East have unreasonable expectations.

 

[767jetz]

Classic Jim. As if USAPA knows the decision and is trying to delay it. One more case where it becomes readily apparent you don't really know the process.

Are you kidding me??? :blink:

Do you mean to tell us that you actually believe the East didn't know which way the arbitrator was going to rule, before the Nic award was rendered. Arbitrators give PLENTY of guidance during the process. They don't just sit there and listen without a word or comment. Heck, Nicolau practically told your guys what would happen if they didn't change their position.

Apparently it is you, and not Jim, who really doesn't know the process. How many arbitrations have you actually been to?

 

[BoeingBoy]

Classic Jim. As if USAPA knows the decision and is trying to delay it. One more case where it becomes readily apparent you don't really know the process.

Note to B.S. - I didn't say the USAPA knew the decision, only that they didn't want the decision made public yet. Wonder why if it was a slam dunk as all the chest thumping USAPA supporters have said? Ya know those 3 monkeys - see no evil, hear no evil, speak no evil? Sounds like the monkey that "hears no evil" has an office in CLT.

Besides, I know the process. Spin everything as good news for the East regardless of what it really is. The 9th's decision (not ripe = USAPA can do what it wants), the LOA 93 decision (delay? what delay? the CIRP team is heading to PHX), attrition (hundreds per year). At least you put one honest remark in there - instead of the steady spin, an admission that it could easily go the company's way. While it could go either way, the transcripts of the arbitration sound like "easily" may be an understatement...

Jim

 

[CallawayGolf]

Oh there is one. Their bags are packed, and the bag tags last time I looked said PHX. This is not a request to delay. There is no such animal in the land of arbitration. Merely making sure Kasher has got all the ammo he needs. All the risk lies with the west on this one. If the East loses? We soldier on, and wait for the attrition. Separate ops forever. No problem here. It ain't like you think it is. Now here comes the good part. If the East wins? More separate ops! Why on earth would we ever come together for a contract? There is absolutely no reason. There are so many retirements looming the entire list is moving up. We go ahead of you on pay right away, at the lowest level of a win. If it is the Full Monte? Death blow to the west. I will NEVER vote for another contract, EVER. You don't want to come east, you have said it over and over. Here comes the cement that will shut you in like the Deepwater Horizon.

For once I agree with you. If the East wins in some form of increased pay on LOA93, then any sense of motivation to achieve a joint CBA will become non-existent for the majority of East pilots. A fact that I’m sure the arbitrator is well aware of and may play into the ruling. This would not be to the favor USAPA as all parties know that USAPA intends to continue to disenfranchise the West pilots as part of their SOP. Winning this arbitration was a long shot from the beginning, but USAPA’s blatant disregard for the West pilots and for Management's desire to complete the joint CBA further weakens USAPA’s case. I’m not predicting the outcome; only that arbitration may well take the consequences of a favorable East ruling into consideration. It’s hard to win at poker when you keep flashing your hand to your opponent.

 

[PullUp]

We will do as we wish with it.

Yes, the union has the authority to craft the formula for distribution. IMO since westies have been making more than easties, the W2 method is fundamentally flawed, unless reversed - where the underpaid actually get a break......
Cheers.

 

[cleardirect]

Oh there is one. Their bags are packed, and the bag tags last time I looked said PHX. This is not a request to delay. There is no such animal in the land of arbitration. Merely making sure Kasher has got all the ammo he needs. All the risk lies with the west on this one. If the East loses? We soldier on, and wait for the attrition. Separate ops forever. No problem here. It ain't like you think it is. Now here comes the good part. If the East wins? More separate ops! Why on earth would we ever come together for a contract? There is absolutely no reason. There are so many retirements looming the entire list is moving up. We go ahead of you on pay right away, at the lowest level of a win. If it is the Full Monte? Death blow to the west. I will NEVER vote for another contract, EVER. You don't want to come east, you have said it over and over. Here comes the cement that will shut you in like the Deepwater Horizon.

Such shallow thinking as usual. I still have not figured out why most of you guys cannot see beyond the glare shield. The world does not start and end with east pilots or usapa.

First I think the LOA 93 is a loser for usapa. Otherwise why all the delay? 3 months after the arbitration to close the record. Now a request to delay the answer. Usapa was all full throttle to get to the arbitration but now delay, delay, delay.

Second. Even if (huge if) the east wins and as you say will never get a contract. You seem to forget the other side of the equation. The company. At some point they are going to need to put this airline together and they know that means a joint contract. Just because the east does not want to play anymore does not mean that the game is over. Let usapa walk away from the NMB table. You do remember the RLA right. Must negotiate in good faith. Saying I got mine screw you is not good faith.

If usapa stalls to long the NMB could release the company to self-help. Lock the east doors, cut off the pay checks, game over until usapa decides that it is time to get a joint contract. My guess would be about one day before the east caves in.

So your little plan of getting yours and walking away not so much. Plus there is always DFR III. Not bargaining in good faith while the east got a pay raise and refuses to bargain for the west. Now there would be a ripe case. Especially after a one day lock out.

 

[PullUp]

Such shallow thinking as usual. I still have not figured out why most of you guys cannot see beyond the glare shield. The world does not start and end with east pilots or usapa.

First I think the LOA 93 is a loser for usapa. Otherwise why all the delay? 3 months after the arbitration to close the record. Now a request to delay the answer. Usapa was all full throttle to get to the arbitration but now delay, delay, delay.

Second. Even if (huge if) the east wins and as you say will never get a contract. You seem to forget the other side of the equation. The company. At some point they are going to need to put this airline together and they know that means a joint contract. Just because the east does not want to play anymore does not mean that the game is over. Let usapa walk away from the NMB table. You do remember the RLA right. Must negotiate in good faith. Saying I got mine screw you is not good faith.

If usapa stalls to long the NMB could release the company to self-help. Lock the east doors, cut off the pay checks, game over until usapa decides that it is time to get a joint contract. My guess would be about one day before the east caves in.

So your little plan of getting yours and walking away not so much. Plus there is always DFR III. Not bargaining in good faith while the east got a pay raise and refuses to bargain for the west. Now there would be a ripe case. Especially after a one day lock out.

overprojection.....your summation is like predicting the weather for next easter sunday in chicago. get real.
A loa93 win means leverage for usapa...and lots of it, resulting in a better contract for all, not just the east.

 

[cleardirect]

overprojection.....your summation is like predicting the weather for next easter sunday in chicago. get real.
A loa93 win means leverage for usapa...and lots of it, resulting in a better contract for all, not just the east.

BS said that if usapa wins LOA 93 there NEVER will be a contract let a lone a better contract. So what is it?

No contract or better contract?

 

[Piedmont1984]

BS said that if usapa wins LOA 93 there NEVER will be a contract let a lone a better contract. So what is it?

No contract or better contract?

Stephen Hawking would say - both.

But seriously, if USAPA wins LOA 93, if and when there is a contract, it will be a better one.

 

[767jetz]

Yes, the union has the authority to craft the formula for distribution. IMO since westies have been making more than easties, the W2 method is fundamentally flawed, unless reversed - where the underpaid actually get a break......
Cheers.

This actually makes sense to me. IMO profit sharing is to reward employees for the company's success. Since there are still 2 separate pay scales for east and west, using the w2 method may arbitrarily favor one side over another, and it would not ruffle my feathers if a different (fair) method were adopted. Perhaps a fleet and seat method, regardless of W2, or just a straight equal amount for all. But this line of thinking is far from what others have suggested, such as keeping it all for the east, or using it to get pay parity. Actions like that are sure to land the union in hot water.

 

[Freebird]

I will NEVER vote for another contract, EVER.

Do we have your WORD on this? Oh wait, your track record dictates otherwise. Forget it.


Usapa = Dont mind the noise. It's just the wheels coming off this 'union'.

 

[Freebird]

Yes, the union has the authority to craft the formula for distribution. IMO since westies have been making more than easties, the W2 method is fundamentally flawed, unless reversed - where the underpaid actually get a break......
Cheers.

Bro,

Take the blinders off. Look around. Almost every other property makes more than you. Spirit, jetBlue, Allegiant and so on. You'd get your raise sooner when you stop trying to get rid of the Binding Arbitration Award. (Not that you didnt know this already)


Usapa = Caution, Dead End in 1.2 miles (or sooner).

 

[notsofast]

For once I agree with you. If the East wins in some form of increased pay on LOA93, then any sense of motivation to achieve a joint CBA will become non-existent for the majority of East pilots. A fact that I’m sure the arbitrator is well aware of and may play into the ruling. This would not be to the favor USAPA as all parties know that USAPA intends to continue to disenfranchise the West pilots as part of their SOP. Winning this arbitration was a long shot from the beginning, but USAPA’s blatant disregard for the West pilots and for Management's desire to complete the joint CBA further weakens USAPA’s case. I’m not predicting the outcome; only that arbitration may well take the consequences of a favorable East ruling into consideration. It’s hard to win at poker when you keep flashing your hand to your opponent.

There is slightly under a 50/50 chance that the loa 93 will be in the USAPA pilots favor. The union had no choice but to grieve it.

If the loa 93 ruling is against the pilots they will continue to negotiate with the company for an industry leading contract, the company will have to pay retroactively. Patience, separate operations until a combined contract. The 9th circuit ruling was very important to USAPA, that was the big one.

 

[notsofast]

Bro,

Take the blinders off. Look around. Almost every other property makes more than you. Spirit, jetBlue, Allegiant and so on.

The America West pilots put up with making 50 percent of their peers for 20 years.

For the east pilots with the lump sum, profit sharing and retroactive pay, it will only be less than 4 years of sacrifice when its all completed.

 

[nic4us]

There is slightly under a 50/50 chance that the loa 93 will be in the USAPA pilots favor. The union had no choice but to grieve it.

Hardly.

There is slightly less than a 50/50 chance you may get restoration of the 3% annual increase. Other than that, I would put your odds at about the number Mr. Kirby used. What is a number very close to zero.