US Pilots Labor Discussion 8/11- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[luvthe9]

We're all one big company now.... shooting holes in aircraft, four wheeling through BDL, bouncing celebrities off ceilings during hard landings, plowing wings through tails of other aircraft in CLT.....

You get my drift. Oh, yeah, none of those involved the PHX based crew.

FLT 1549 Miracle on The Hudson. Biggest and best accolade for any airline crew ever. East Crewed......

 

[Pi brat]

No, you would have 17 years LOS, maybe someday you'll learn the difference.

Trader,

You never answered this I asked:

"You are correct, we did. But........a funny thing happened on the way to the arbitration. Despite parking 30-40 aircraft, the attrition out ran the shrinkage and we recalled several hundred pilots, didn't we? But Mr. Nic still, with the advantage of hindsight, put them on the bottom."

You just kept spewing your line.

 

[cleardirect]

Trader,

You never answered this I asked:

"You are correct, we did. But........a funny thing happened on the way to the arbitration. Despite parking 30-40 aircraft, the attrition out ran the shrinkage and we recalled several hundred pilots, didn't we? But Mr. Nic still, with the advantage of hindsight, put them on the bottom."

You just kept spewing your line.

Let’s see what the MAJORITY opinion said about those on furlough and why they were placed at the bottom of the list. Also why some were recalled AFTER the merger.

From the Nicolau Award and Opinion:

We further understand that those pilots on furlough are not there through choice or fault and that, as a result of their placement, they will not advance as quickly as they would like. But when one looks at the length of many of those furloughs as well as the end of new hirings occasioned by the continuing difficulties US Airways had in resolving its structural problems and finding its way out of bankruptcy, their
expectations of advancement could not have been intense, the opposite had to be true.

As evidenced by Captain Brucia's Concurring and Dissenting Opinion, attached hereto, he disagrees with this aspect of the Award. His view is that at a minimum consideration should be given to those US Airways pilots already recalled; that treatment of them as active pilots consistent with their present status would serve to recognize the substantial time they had already invested in their airline. In the majority's view, this gives weight to post-merger expectations rather than pre-merger expectations, contrary to what ALPA policy foresees. In so doing it fails to recognize the prospects the US Airways pilots faced before the merger; including the reduction of the active pilot work force from 5500 to close to 3000, the sharp reduction in the size of the fleet since the 1990's; the absence of recalls though many active pilots were retiring; the successive bankruptcies and the inability to successfully emerge from that condition.

When all that is considered, in the majority's view, it is far more appropriate to combine those who brought jobs to the merger, particularly when the protection of career expectations is of such overriding concern. This is not to say, of course, that this merger is designed or should be thought of as a model for others that may follow. As stated at the beginning, each case does turn on its own facts. As a consequence, different facts may produce different results. Here, a majority is of the opinion that the facts of this case justify our conclusion.

You all did notice the part where is says "POST-MERGER" expectation. It did not say due to attrition they were recalled. Also you will notice that it says "sharp reduction in the size of the fleet since the 1990's. 1990's to 2005. That appears to be a 15 year period hardly the "snapshot" that you all try and sell. Us Air was in decline for a long time. Not just a couple months prior to the merger. As many here try and convince themselves.

What is it that the usapa supporters are always saying. MAJORITY RULES. Read it closely the dissent only had to do with the small number recalled between the PID and the arbitration. That was his only objection. He agreed with the rest of the award and opinion.

The majority determined that furloughed pilots no matter how much LOS they had did not bring a job and had very little career expectation. Attrition or not.

 

[Pi brat]

Let’s see what the MAJORITY opinion said about those on furlough and why they were placed at the bottom of the list. Also why some were recalled AFTER the merger.

From the Nicolau Award and Opinion:



You all did notice the part where is says "POST-MERGER" expectation. It did not say due to attrition they were recalled. Also you will notice that it says "sharp reduction in the size of the fleet since the 1990's. 1990's to 2005. That appears to be a 15 year period hardly the "snapshot" that you all try and sell. Us Air was in decline for a long time. Not just a couple months prior to the merger. As many here try and convince themselves.

What is it that the usapa supporters are always saying. MAJORITY RULES. Read it closely the dissent only had to do with the small number recalled between the PID and the arbitration. That was his only objection. He agreed with the rest of the award and opinion.

The majority determined that furloughed pilots no matter how much LOS they had did not bring a job and had very little career expectation. Attrition or not.

I read it, thanks. I, like Capt. Brucia, disagree. Nic saw what was happening but chose to ignore it. Let me ask you this, if Nic had said that since AWA had been the anchor of the pilot the profession with their contracts so they deserve to be stapled to the bottom, would you say "Well, okay, that must be right since that is what a neutral third party decided!"?

As far as career expectations go answer this. A UA pilot and a DL pilot are sitting in a bar discussing the airline industry on May 17 2005. They are trying to decide who will win and who will lose. The DL pilot says "US Airways is a goner! The will be gone soon and DL will profit. Those guys jobs are toast." The UA pilot says "I don't think so. US Air is the cockroach of the business, nothing can kill them. I bet somebody will see the value of their east coast operation and snap them up for a song. While they are in Chp 11 a lot can be done with them and they have given up so much their costs are in the basement. UA should have done it in the mid 90s when they could have had them for a song." Which pilot's version of career expectations would history prove correct?

Bottom line: US Airways didn't go out of business! Those jobs are still here and the US contract provides for life time recall rights for furloughees. Nobody can take those jobs before they decide if they want to come back, unless an arbitrator takes them away.

It doesn't matter what you or I think, it's up to the courts.

p.s. My post to the Trader was about what I saw as faulty logic, as far as he took it.

 

[cleardirect]

I read it, thanks. I, like Capt. Brucia, disagree. Nic saw what was happening but chose to ignore it. Let me ask you this, if Nic had said that since AWA had been the anchor of the pilot the profession with their contracts so they deserve to be stapled to the bottom, would you say "Well, okay, that must be right since that is what a neutral third party decided!"?

As far as career expectations go answer this. A UA pilot and a DL pilot are sitting in a bar discussing the airline industry on May 17 2005. They are trying to decide who will win and who will lose. The DL pilot says "US Airways is a goner! The will be gone soon and DL will profit. Those guys jobs are toast." The UA pilot says "I don't think so. US Air is the cockroach of the business, nothing can kill them. I bet somebody will see the value of their east coast operation and snap them up for a song. While they are in Chp 11 a lot can be done with them and they have given up so much their costs are in the basement. UA should have done it in the mid 90s when they could have had them for a song." Which pilot's version of career expectations would history prove correct?

Bottom line: US Airways didn't go out of business! Those jobs are still here and the US contract provides for life time recall rights for furloughees. Nobody can take those jobs before they decide if they want to come back, unless an arbitrator takes them away.

It doesn't matter what you or I think, it's up to the courts.

p.s. My post to the Trader was about what I saw as faulty logic, as far as he took it.

Did you make the argument to Nicolau that AWA was an anchor on the industry? No you did not. Because at the time and still presently it is the east that is the anchor, bottom wages.

As far as two pilots in a bar deciding anything. Who cares.

We had an arbitration and all that involves. Statements under oath with documented facts. Not emotion and opinion.

No Us Airways did not go out of business. But at the time and for many years prior it was failing. Not just a snapshot.

You guys had your chance to make your case. The majority did not agree with your position. The dissent was only a slight disagreement. Your neutral did not object to the way the list was put together. He did not oppose the slotting method.

Even if THE MAJORITY had agree with his dissent and given the 300 furloughed pilots credit and placed them above Dave O'Dell. There would still be 16 year furloughed pilots below Dave O'Dell. Are you saying that you would have accepted that but you are total opposed to having 17 years furloughed pilots below Dave O'Dell?


What did your neutral say?

The most senior furloughed US Airways pilot (Colello) was hired in 1988 and had accrued 16.4 years of service as of the date of announcement of the merger.

So where are you guys getting 17 years? Just a little more hyperbole.

At a minimum, it is my opinion that the US Airways pilots, who had already received notice of their opportunity to return to work from furlough, should have received some consideration for the substantial time they have already invested in their airline.

Some consideration for the ones that received recall. He did not say that all furloughed should receive full credit. A few should receive SOME consideration. But the MAJORITY disagreed. You guys do understand the way the majority thing works right?

Are you saying that we have gone through this whole fight because you wanted 300 more east pilot senior to west pilots? You would have accepted that?

Do you guys hear us whining about the 120 CEL pilots that were allowed on the list that NEVER flew for mainline? Do you want to throw them off the list?

 

[CallawayGolf]

p.s. My post to the Trader was about what I saw as faulty logic, as far as he took it.

What's so difficult to understand about Trader's logic? Having seniority means being senior to someone in the same population who is junior to you. If there is no one junior to you on the list then you are not senior to anyone. So, if you start out as number 3000 out of a population size of 3000 and then 10 years later end up with a "seniority" number of 2000 out of a population size of 2000 you still haven't become senior to anyone. You may have gained 10 years of service but that buys you nothing on a seniority system where everyone in the population is still senior to you. You can't use your 10 years to gain an advantage over the other 1999 people who are more senior, and you have no safety factor in the event of a furlough. If even one position is furloughed - its tag and you're it.

 

[Pi brat]

Did you make the argument to Nicolau that AWA was an anchor on the industry? No you did not. Because at the time and still presently it is the east that is the anchor, bottom wages.

As far as two pilots in a bar deciding anything. Who cares.

We had an arbitration and all that involves. Statements under oath with documented facts. Not emotion and opinion.

No Us Airways did not go out of business. But at the time and for many years prior it was failing. Not just a snapshot.

You guys had your chance to make your case. The majority did not agree with your position. The dissent was only a slight disagreement. Your neutral did not object to the way the list was put together. He did not oppose the slotting method.

Even if THE MAJORITY had agree with his dissent and given the 300 furloughed pilots credit and placed them above Dave O'Dell. There would still be 16 year furloughed pilots below Dave O'Dell. Are you saying that you would have accepted that but you are total opposed to having 17 years furloughed pilots below Dave O'Dell?

Are you saying that we have gone through this whole fight because you wanted 300 more east pilot senior to west pilots? You would have accepted that?

Do you guys hear us whining about the 120 CEL pilots that were allowed on the list that NEVER flew for mainline? Do you want to throw them off the list?

First off, I accepted all this a long time ago. It will be what it will be, as there is not a line of folks at the door asking my opinion. I put it forth to the web board wonders when I see what I deem questionable logic.

Who cares about the two pilots in a bar? I guess you do as I believe you see where I'm going about career expectations and you blow it of with a "who cares?"

There were in fact opinions in the arbitration. Career expectations are always opinions as there is no was to see the future. As a matter of fact you point out that there were majority and minority OPINIONS.

If it was failing, why did it not go away? Here's a fact for you: For the vast majority of it;s existence AWA pilot's contract was vastly inferior to US and almost any other carrier. LOA 93 started off targeting a hybrid of the AWA and jetBlue contract and only through the stupidity of the ALPA backed MEC did we end up with worse. Don't believe me, I can give you the contact of my friend that spent a month in Tempe studying it for the company.

I think O'dell should be at or near the bottom.

We didn't go through this whole fight because of me.

The CEL pilots did fly for the mainline as it turned out that MDA, whatever the intention was, was operated under the mainline certificate.

Any other questions?

 

[traderjake]

p.s. My post to the Trader was about what I saw as faulty logic, as far as he took it.

There is nothing faulty about my logic, see Callaways explaination.

My example proves that seniority is your position on a seniority list, not how long you worked for a company.

 

[Pi brat]

There is nothing faulty about my logic, see Callaways explaination.

My example proves that seniority is your position on a seniority list, not how long you worked for a company.

You are correct about seniority and your example, as far as it goes. IMHO where you go off track is when you fail to recognize what happened during/after the merger. See my post a funny thing happened on the way to the arbitration and answer it please.

US Air did in fact shrink faster than it's attrition for many years. As a matter of fact it shrunk faster during certain periods, hence the furloughs. But for your example to work it would have to always do that, and US Airways didn't always do that. I don't know of any airline that did. TWA was the poster boy for this type, but don't we have several guys flying for us that got hired in their attrition boom that happened in the years just prior to the AA merger?

In May 2005 I was a mid level line holder AB F/O in CLT, unable to hold captain anywhere. Today we have less bid positions, yet I'm a 737 captain. Under your theory, how did that happen?

 

[Barrister]

Found him at number 2822, listed as F/O and above a few AWA captains.

Also found him on usapa's DOH list, number 2013, above all but 138 former West pilots, above 85% of the West captains, and even above 2 former West pilots hired the same exact date, the other 3 West pilots with that DOH have been retired for 3 or more years, 1 would remain senior to Mike.

Also found Coello, he gets to go from furloughed to above 1500 West pilots, 600 West captains, many of which have more LOS even counting the MDA furloughed time usapa is counting as LOS. If you do not count the furloughed time as LOS he leapfrogs hundreds of West captains with more LOS.

Also found an unbroken string of 530 West pilots well below the east furloughed mark, 300 of which are captains, the only pilots seperating them from the other 800 West pilots is the intermittent grouping of furloughed east pilots.

Boy you guys yell and scream and hope no one notices the real numbers.

Look at NIC list #4721 with 17 LOS AND Ten....now look above him to
#4719 with 0.3 years thats point three ..... get it....... point .3 years v. 17..
and he is 6 years YOUNGER......the dude with .3 years is senior to the dude with
17 years and the .3 guy gets to earn an extra MILLION bucks.....while the 17 year
dude sits in a nursing home. In fact 200-300 guys below Odell only have 1-3 years furlough time out of 16.
Yea....thanks NIC...may we have another!!!

NICDOA
NPJB

 

[luvn737s]

TWO letters sum it up, but don't hand YOU a lottery ticket..........C&R

So you would have no heartburn with the C&R's being re-written exclusively by west pilots, with no input or veto power from the east, so long as DOH was the methodology?

That's what you are asking the west pilots to swallow. What's worse, they shouldn't have to do anything since they participated in the process of negotiation and the process of mediation and the process of arbitration in good faith with reasonable demands and expectations.

How can you complain that the AAAMEC gave away too much, when if they had budged off DOH even a small amount, the Nic list could have been quite different. The east loves to slaughter their scapegoats, but you can't accuse ALPA of being too soft, at least not when softening might have actually paid off.

 

[Freebird]

Why the rush? What is the urgency?
LOA 93 arb results are imminent. Easties all want that decision known before proceeding in any direction.
Things are just fine the way they are right now, thank you.
Have a great day.

Why is USAPA afraid to put up a contract to vote on? Afraid the "older" senior East pilots who are unaffected by this will vote for a pay raise and move on?

Why is Cleary afraid? Does he think it will pass, regardless of his expensive legal campaign? Why are you afraid?

Prove yourselves with a vote.

 

[nycbusdriver]

Why is USAPA afraid to put up a contract to vote on? Afraid the "older" senior East pilots who are unaffected by this will vote for a pay raise and move on?

Why is Cleary afraid? Does he think it will pass, regardless of his expensive legal campaign? Why are you afraid?

Prove yourselves with a vote.

What have they done that makes you think they are afraid to put up a contract to vote on? They can't do that until the company begins to earnestly bargain. Did you somehow miss that the process is now in federal mediation? Why not send off a note to the mediator and ask her why there's no contract to even put up for a vote? I'm certain she would be happy to tell you where to get off.

 

[cleardirect]

There were in fact opinions in the arbitration. Career expectations are always opinions as there is no was to see the future. As a matter of fact you point out that there were majority and minority OPINIONS.

You mean kind of like the ninth circuit issued their opinion along with the dissent?

If it was failing, why did it not go away? Here's a fact for you: For the vast majority of it;s existence AWA pilot's contract was vastly inferior to US and almost any other carrier. LOA 93 started off targeting a hybrid of the AWA and jetBlue contract and only through the stupidity of the ALPA backed MEC did we end up with worse. Don't believe me, I can give you the contact of my friend that spent a month in Tempe studying it for the company.

Why it did not go away. Because there was a merger. Go ask the money men what the BK exit plan was if AWA had not come along.

For a majority of four existences our contract was inferior to yours. Maybe but as time marches on that is changing. Since 2004 you have been vastly inferior to the industry.
So 6 years of LOA 93.
Years on service
15 years 40% of your career at bottom wages. Getting close to being a majority of a career at vastly inferior wages.
20 years 30%
25 years 24%
30 years 20% of a career scraping the bottom.

How much longer are you willing to wait? 4-5 years.
10 years on LOA 93 wages.
20 years 50%
25 years 40%
30 years 30% of a career at BK wages and work rules. As you put it inferior wages. Longing for the glory days of what you had does not cut it. Let’s not forget that attrition you all place so much value on. How many are going to retire at BK wages bottom of the industry? Remembering what you used to make and seeing the last pay check walking out the door might anger some people.
Do you believe that usapa can get a contract good enough to make up for any of that?

I think O'dell should be at or near the bottom.

You have your opinion. The guy whose opinion mattered disagreed.

We didn't go through this whole fight because of me.

Not just you but guys like you.

The CEL pilots did fly for the mainline as it turned out that MDA, whatever the intention was, was operated under the mainline certificate.

It turns out that they were not mainline. the company took their longevity for time there. The court has not rule on the MDA DFR so you can't point to that. Just because it was the same certificate does not matter.

 

[luvthe9]

Let’s see what the MAJORITY opinion said about those on furlough and why they were placed at the bottom of the list. Also why some were recalled AFTER the merger.

From the Nicolau Award and Opinion:



You all did notice the part where is says "POST-MERGER" expectation. It did not say due to attrition they were recalled. Also you will notice that it says "sharp reduction in the size of the fleet since the 1990's. 1990's to 2005. That appears to be a 15 year period hardly the "snapshot" that you all try and sell. Us Air was in decline for a long time. Not just a couple months prior to the merger. As many here try and convince themselves.

What is it that the usapa supporters are always saying. MAJORITY RULES. Read it closely the dissent only had to do with the small number recalled between the PID and the arbitration. That was his only objection. He agreed with the rest of the award and opinion.

The majority determined that furloughed pilots no matter how much LOS they had did not bring a job and had very little career expectation. Attrition or not.

"From the Nicolau Award and Opinion........." You might as well be citing the Constitution of the Confederate States of America. None of this matters anymore, who saved who, who flew what. Nothing matters from this anymore. The fact is, the company is making money again, nobody is in danger of losing their jobs presently, so how is anyone saving anyone anymore? The day of putting people on the bottom because of a failing airline are gone. It didn't happen when you wanted it to, so it is going to have to be something different now.