US Pilots Labor Discussion 8/11- STAY ON TOPIC AND OBSERVE THE RULES

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Crazy Chester followed me, and he caught me in the fog.
He said I will fix your rack, if you take Jack my dog.
I said wait a minute Chester, ya know I'm a peaceful man.
He said thats okay son, won't ya feed him when ya can?

MM, lets get a recording artist to put music to your posts. We will make millions. Try to throw a few more ryhmes in there though!

I am sorry, but don't we TEST for what your on ? MM! Your reality is a fading sunset!

 

[luvn737s]

MM, lets get a recording artist to put music to your posts. We will make millions. Try to throw a few more ryhmes in there though!

No, you just need to print out MM's posts and then cut out the words and rearrange them until they make sense. He must be addicted to the Jumble in the paper.

 

[nic4us]

I am sorry, but don't we TEST for what your on ? MM! Your reality is a fading sunset!

"Your reality is a fading sunset"

Thats what I'm talking about. C'mon, four more lines and we have the first verse!

 

[nic4us]

I am sorry, but don't we TEST for what your on ? MM!

Well, I do not know how we do things here at US Airways, but at America West we did TEST for what I am on in the pre-employment interview process. That is what made it a pretty fun place to work. We tested to make sure you had at least a little of what I am on in you.

 

[MUTATIS MUTANDIS]

Well, I do not know how we do things here at US Airways, but at America West we did TEST for what I am on in the pre-employment interview process. That is what made it a pretty fun place to work. We tested to make sure you had at least a little of what I am on in you.

Well considering , you and DP's driving record ( the one where a cab is better judgement) that desert thinking could use refinement! Maybe the polygraph could also help! MM! Good for you, we know there are cracks in the screening!

 

[Phoenix]

Yep. It's hard to argue with the truth isnt it?

specious reasoning: misleading, deceptive, false, fallacious, unsound, spurious, casuistic, sophistic.

Accusations of greed, dishonestly, lack of integrity, easthole, scab, etc. are superficial at best and simply a failure to accept the reality of where we now are as a pilot group. Accusations about anyone's motivation or moral rectitude at this point are simply whining and irrelevant (try it as an opener at the SCOTUS), unless of course they make you fell better. Carry on.

 

[Pi brat]

How is my questioning your morality any more "stupid" than you questioning my judgment?

Please quote the post that causes you to question my judgment.

I find that telling someone that their moral compass is off based on web board posting is a little more offensive than saying your frustration has affected your judgement.

I asked you first, show me my morally corrupt posts. Show me your basis and answer my other questions about what YOU have done to carry out any moral obligation to your fellow man.

 

[traderjake]

I find that telling someone that their moral compass is off based on web board posting is a little more offensive than saying your frustration has affected your judgement.

I asked you first, show me my morally corrupt posts. Show me your basis and answer my other questions about what YOU have done to carry out any moral obligation to your fellow man.

You threw the first stone.

I find it offensive that you question my judgment because I don't agree with you or the USAPA party line.

Three of the last three seniority arbitrations, including Delta Northwest, say that my position is right and USAPA's is wrong.

If that means nothing to you, so be it.

You think I'm judgment impaired and I think you are immoral for defending USAPA and DOH.

 

[Pi brat]

You think I'm judgment impaired and I think you are immoral for defending USAPA and DOH.

Show me where I've done that. If you had paid attention you would find that I have stated that I understand the problems the west pilots have with DOH and I have been one of USAPA's leaders sharpest critics. I can assure you that the top leaders don't care for me as I have taken the issues I see with them right to them instead of just whining on this board as most of those that disagree with them,east and west, do.

What I don't do, but see you doing and why I said your anger clouded your judgment, was to throw out a blanket condemnation of all that is USAPA and come out with 99% negative posts towards my east co-workers. I think USAPA has gotten somethings right and I understand my east co-workers concerns. I cannot recall a positive post from you about anything east. When you are part of a group and you do nothing but sharply criticize everything it does, I think that tends to harden them in their position, not bridge the gap.

So I will be waiting for your answers. Show me my posts that support your claims about my moral compass. Show me how I'm wrong about the attrition that occurred contrary to your example. From your high moral ground, show me what you have done about the issues I posted earlier. I've been waiting patiently.

 

[luvn737s]

Although it's an extreme example (but only to highlight the issue) the supporters of Apartheid may have been able to keep the trains running on time, but it didn't excuse them, or those who silently stood-by and watched, of the injustice. If those east USAPA supporters don't want to be under the same blanket as those responsible for trying to shed their obligation to utilize the Nicolau award, and those who seek to marginalize the west, then they need to stand up and get out from under the blanket.

Their inaction implies they are nice and cozy under there, and deserve the contempt for their behavior.

 

[Pi brat]

Although it's an extreme example (but only to highlight the issue) the supporters of Apartheid may have been able to keep the trains running on time, but it didn't excuse them, or those who silently stood-by and watched, of the injustice. If those east USAPA supporters don't want to be under the same blanket as those responsible for trying to shed their obligation to utilize the Nicolau award, and those who seek to marginalize the west, then they need to stand up and get out from under the blanket.

Their inaction implies they are nice and cozy under there, and deserve the contempt for their behavior.

Thanks for saying that Apartheid is an extreme example, because when we use extreme example there is some danger that some will say that there is no comparison and stop there.

I agree with you and have been frustrated with some of my east friends actions and reactions. While I support their right to defend their careers, I've been disappointed and frustrated about the "ends justifies the means" and apathetic approach that some have taken. The C18 case typifies this as I believe it was massively mishandled, from start to finish.

Whether our union is USAPA, ALPA, Teamsters, or any other group, we need to look at and question their actions. We can't just take everything they say or publish at face value and we need to follow up. There will always be people that seek office for the wrong reasons and they need to be kept in check.

 

[Hate2fly]

Although it's an extreme example (but only to highlight the issue) the supporters of Apartheid may have been able to keep the trains running on time, but it didn't excuse them, or those who silently stood-by and watched, of the injustice. If those east USAPA supporters don't want to be under the same blanket as those responsible for trying to shed their obligation to utilize the Nicolau award, and those who seek to marginalize the west, then they need to stand up and get out from under the blanket.

Their inaction implies they are nice and cozy under there, and deserve the contempt for their behavior.

luvn737s,

The day the Nicolau proposal hit the pavement even ALPA knew it was a turd! J. Freund told the west that this was a proposal and you guys wouldn't listen. ALPA couldn't do anything with it. It was a turd! This is what happens when people get greedy. The westies have been salivating for more than 3 years to have the Nic implemented. We told you it will never happen.....the company told you it would never happen. J. Freund and ALPA told you it would never happen. And you never listened! The desert judge and his buddies (AOL) had this all figured out. Remember how he was losing sleep over this trial. He made some big mistakes! The only east pilots that thought the Nic was ever going to see the light of day were the ALPA supporters......and some weak sisters. Go ahead and ask some east pilot how he really feels about the Nic. It will be some of the most entertaining dialog you could ever imagine. None of us are young anymore in the east and we have all seen so much BS in our life time. And the Nic was total BS. You guys had this thing in your heads that this was a federally mandated arbitration......it was nothing more than an internal union policy. The 9th realized this and so will any other court in this nation. AOL and the team of west legal experts cost you guys a lot of money for a fake DFR.

Hate

 

[CallawayGolf]

luvn737s,

The day the Nicolau proposal hit the pavement even ALPA knew it was a turd! J. Freund told the west that this was a proposal and you guys wouldn't listen. ALPA couldn't do anything with it. It was a turd! This is what happens when people get greedy. The westies have been salivating for more than 3 years to have the Nic implemented. We told you it will never happen.....the company told you it would never happen. J. Freund and ALPA told you it would never happen. And you never listened! The desert judge and his buddies (AOL) had this all figured out. Remember how he was losing sleep over this trial. He made some big mistakes! The only east pilots that thought the Nic was ever going to see the light of day were the ALPA supporters......and some weak sisters. Go ahead and ask some east pilot how he really feels about the Nic. It will be some of the most entertaining dialog you could ever imagine. None of us are young anymore in the east and we have all seen so much BS in our life time. And the Nic was total BS. You guys had this thing in your heads that this was a federally mandated arbitration......it was nothing more than an internal union policy. The 9th realized this and so will any other court in this nation. AOL and the team of west legal experts cost you guys a lot of money for a fake DFR.

Hate

So binding arbitration is only binding when it is federally mandated? Otherwise the arbitration award is just a proposal? Can you cite where the 9th made this bold assertion or is this just an attempt to rationalize a morally reprehensible position?

 

[767jetz]

He might start by cutting back on the rhetoric and attacks that he posts.

There is no ambiguity here.

It is wrong to take someone's job and give it to someone else who could not hold the same job at their own company.

It's wrong to furlough the majority of the West before you furlough one East pilot.

DOH does both.

I know my tone is harsh but I will not be an apologist for the unethical behavior of my coworkers.

I completely agree with your point of view. I have also seen Pi brat criticize and question USPA's motives and action on this board and in pm's in the past.

I know you guys are caught in this current exchange. Regardless of who said what first, IMO each of you are better served directing your efforts at other more hardline members.

I have found that in the past you each have a history of being able to articulate your points of view in a way that is more constructive and respectful than many others on this forum. I also believe that if more east pilots like yourselves engaged in debate rather than argument, you might you might find the momentum to gain control of your union and unlock the stalemate.

 

[cleardirect]

luvn737s,

The day the Nicolau proposal hit the pavement even ALPA knew it was a turd! J. Freund told the west that this was a proposal and you guys wouldn't listen. ALPA couldn't do anything with it. It was a turd! This is what happens when people get greedy. The westies have been salivating for more than 3 years to have the Nic implemented. We told you it will never happen.....the company told you it would never happen. J. Freund and ALPA told you it would never happen. And you never listened! The desert judge and his buddies (AOL) had this all figured out. Remember how he was losing sleep over this trial. He made some big mistakes! The only east pilots that thought the Nic was ever going to see the light of day were the ALPA supporters......and some weak sisters. Go ahead and ask some east pilot how he really feels about the Nic. It will be some of the most entertaining dialog you could ever imagine. None of us are young anymore in the east and we have all seen so much BS in our life time. And the Nic was total BS. You guys had this thing in your heads that this was a federally mandated arbitration......it was nothing more than an internal union policy. The 9th realized this and so will any other court in this nation. AOL and the team of west legal experts cost you guys a lot of money for a fake DFR.

Hate

The only people that think it is a turd are east pilot. Projecting your opinion onto others will not get you very far.

Just to remind you and once again put things in context and correct east misunderstanding. Here are the transcripts of what judge Wake was losing sleep over.

This trial was NOT about the merits of the Nicolau or arbitration. No matter how hard usapa tried to make it. That is what judge Wake was losing sleep over. That he had allowed usapa to much lee way away from the DFR and making it about the award.

UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT
May 5, 2009 - Jury Trial - Day 6 - Testimony of Jack Stephan
1115


THE COURT: I wanted to talk to all of you for a minute because I've had a bad weekend thinking that I've been too loose in this trial, letting too much stuff in. Now, the majority of that was for them, some of it for you. So if I've erred I want to be equal in my error. I've reminded the jury a number of times that they're
getting this information for background, the nature of the disputes and the conflicts, but it's sure sounding like trying the case on the merits of the arbitration award. I can remind them from time to time --

MR. BRENGLE: Yes, sir.

THE COURT: -- but --

MR. BRENGLE: We're basically showing that these efforts by ALPA were authorized, they showed that if the pilots did wish to make an agreement around Nicolau they could. And that seems to have been -- this goes to the final and binding issue. They can treat it as final and binding but they always have the option on their own to --

THE COURT: I'll read the documents, Mr. Brengle.

MR. BRENGLE: But it is, Your Honor. That's exactly how they do read and that's the testimony and no one has seemed to say otherwise.

THE COURT: Let me tell you -- and I -- gees. I don't want to go off into too much time right now but it's always possible I've gotten something wrong but I've labored through these documents, and the documents appear to me to be absolutely crystal clear that the vote, whether it's the East MEC and the West MEC or all the pilots together in the new union, is a vote they have to -- they get to take on the final CBA.

MR. BRENGLE: Correct. THE COURT: And the final CBA is a mixed bag of a lot of things.

MR. BRENGLE: That's right.

THE COURT: And it seems to me that it is entirely speculative to say that when presented with a mixed bag, as opposed to the seniority list, people are going to be happy, unhappy, vote yes, vote no, and I am troubled about this testimony that says --

MR. BRENGLE: Right.

THE COURT: -- were people happy, were they unhappy. The answer is, viewed in isolation, which is
irrelevant, East Pilots were happy or unhappy with certain things on the seniority list and the same is true as the West Pilots. But union democracy is not about that. It's about voting on the entire CBA.

MR. BRENGLE: Yes, sir, that's right.

THE COURT: And therefore, I am -- I've lost sleep over the weekend and as the trial has progressed as to whether my limitations and my instructions are effective. So the question you've put is, were they happy?
Well --

MR. BRENGLE: No. Did they think it was fair. Here's -- here's what I would have said. In the Book of Mark, when Jesus was asked are you God, if he had said no, there would be no Christianity. It would
all be done. But he said yes. That doesn't prove he's God but that starts you along the path. That's all that question is designed to do. If he says no, then the whole Wye River thing is bad news for the East Pilots.
So it's a foundational question. First, they've got to think it was fair. Whether or not the West guys did later
doesn't matter. Because, as the Court has said, even though it's modifiable by the parties, they don't have to do it. I'm actually going to bring that out through Mr. Stephan that the West and the East Pilots had the same rights with respect to this.

THE COURT: Well, it seems to me -- again, it seems to me clear beyond dispute from the documents that the documents establish something that was final and binding and not subject to ratification or rejection.

MR. BRENGLE: That's --

THE COURT: But, as in any situation, contractual or otherwise, people who have a right and people who do not have a right are perfectly free to talk and discuss the accommodations for reasons not bearing upon their entitlement or lack of entitlement for prior considerations. That's all I've seen has gone on in the process described. But the fact that people are asked to talk about a right and people are willing to in no way suggests a lack of entitlement. It exists for broader motivations on which people might decide to compromise their rights, but it is not rationally suggestive that there's a lack of a clear written right merely because people for broader reasons are willing to talk. It's just in a way -- this is a secular court and I won't comment on the Gospel of Mark but --

MR. BRENGLE: You know what I mean.

THE COURT: Well, I spent six years studying to be a Catholic priest and I read the Gospel of Mark in Greek. So we won't go there.